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  • FIRST POST
    • Supersonos
    • By Supersonos 5th Oct 19, 10:45 PM
    • 417Posts
    • 271Thanks
    Supersonos
    Advertising for a freelance "employee"
    • #1
    • 5th Oct 19, 10:45 PM
    Advertising for a freelance "employee" 5th Oct 19 at 10:45 PM
    I work for other companies on a freelance basis. I then tell that company who else to contract so they can work with me to get the job done. Technically I become their "boss", but they're actually working for the higher company rather than me directly.

    It's getting hard to find good people to ask for. Could I advertise offering someone training and the potential of work but without any contract/guarantees?

    Or by advertising and offering free, casual training, am I somehow then responsible for that person getting work/holiday pay/sick pay etc?

    Am I able to interview people and offer to train them/"employ" them, but say they have to be self-employed?
    Last edited by Supersonos; 05-10-2019 at 10:48 PM.
Page 1
    • Brynsam
    • By Brynsam 6th Oct 19, 12:24 AM
    • 2,356 Posts
    • 1,772 Thanks
    Brynsam
    • #2
    • 6th Oct 19, 12:24 AM
    • #2
    • 6th Oct 19, 12:24 AM
    I work for other companies on a freelance basis. I then tell that company who else to contract so they can work with me to get the job done. Technically I become their "boss", but they're actually working for the higher company rather than me directly.

    It's getting hard to find good people to ask for. Could I advertise offering someone training and the potential of work but without any contract/guarantees?

    Or by advertising and offering free, casual training, am I somehow then responsible for that person getting work/holiday pay/sick pay etc?

    Am I able to interview people and offer to train them/"employ" them, but say they have to be self-employed?
    Originally posted by Supersonos
    You are getting into areas you don't understand and they are much trickier than you might think. Meeting the requirements for self-employment is down to HMRC, not anyone else - and even then these people could claim they were 'workers' even if not employees.

    If you are going to employ people you need to be absolutely up to speed with the relevant requirements/regulations - and that could apply even if you contract them via their own limited company.
    • BrassicWoman
    • By BrassicWoman 6th Oct 19, 8:04 AM
    • 2,250 Posts
    • 8,674 Thanks
    BrassicWoman
    • #3
    • 6th Oct 19, 8:04 AM
    • #3
    • 6th Oct 19, 8:04 AM

    It's getting hard to find good people to ask for.
    Originally posted by Supersonos
    That'll be because people can either find work themselves or would rather be an employee.

    Bite the bullet and do it properly, or just take on smaller jobs. This sounds like tax evasion to me. Which also screams DODGY BOSS.
    May 19 grocery challenge 100.79/ 200
    • Supersonos
    • By Supersonos 6th Oct 19, 9:32 AM
    • 417 Posts
    • 271 Thanks
    Supersonos
    • #4
    • 6th Oct 19, 9:32 AM
    • #4
    • 6th Oct 19, 9:32 AM
    That'll be because people can either find work themselves or would rather be an employee.

    Bite the bullet and do it properly, or just take on smaller jobs. This sounds like tax evasion to me. Which also screams DODGY BOSS.
    Originally posted by BrassicWoman
    Blimey! Not sure how you got tax evasion from what I've said!

    I would consider doing it "properly", but as I am freelance myself, I am unable to commit to employing someone directly - I can't guarantee my own work let alone someone else's.

    I work in an industry that is desirable but notoriously hard to get into - everyone is freelance and all jobs are short-term (a few weeks at most). Most people work for free for several weeks or months in the hope of getting paid work, which often ends up with them leaving the industry.

    I just want to find someone suitable, give them training and then put them forward for work. Is this a bad thing?
    • Brynsam
    • By Brynsam 6th Oct 19, 12:03 PM
    • 2,356 Posts
    • 1,772 Thanks
    Brynsam
    • #5
    • 6th Oct 19, 12:03 PM
    • #5
    • 6th Oct 19, 12:03 PM
    I just want to find someone suitable, give them training and then put them forward for work. Is this a bad thing?
    Originally posted by Supersonos
    Sounds rather naive. You are taking considerable risks, not least with your own reputation.
    • Supersonos
    • By Supersonos 6th Oct 19, 12:51 PM
    • 417 Posts
    • 271 Thanks
    Supersonos
    • #6
    • 6th Oct 19, 12:51 PM
    • #6
    • 6th Oct 19, 12:51 PM
    Sounds rather naive. You are taking considerable risks, not least with your own reputation.
    Originally posted by Brynsam
    You are aware I haven't done anything yet, right? And I agree that I'm naiive, but that's why I'm here trying to get information.

    So far, what you've said has taught me nothing. What are the risks? And how would this affect my reputation?

    I thought I was trying to do a good thing (give someone training and a way into an industry).
    • Guesses
    • By Guesses 8th Oct 19, 9:34 AM
    • 6 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Guesses
    • #7
    • 8th Oct 19, 9:34 AM
    • #7
    • 8th Oct 19, 9:34 AM
    Hi - I've joined the forum to add a comment to this, as this sounds very much like my situation.

    I'm a freelance TV cameraman and use the services of freelance camera assistants.

    I've been considering making contact with a local college/university and offering some sort of casual camera apprenticeship, but as I'm freelance and have no idea how much work I'll have in the future, I would not be able to actually employ them. I'd be offering them training and request them on my jobs.

    From what I've read here, is this not something I should consider doing?
    • General Grant
    • By General Grant 8th Oct 19, 10:16 AM
    • 1,230 Posts
    • 1,116 Thanks
    General Grant
    • #8
    • 8th Oct 19, 10:16 AM
    • #8
    • 8th Oct 19, 10:16 AM
    Hi - I've joined the forum to add a comment to this, as this sounds very much like my situation.

    I'm a freelance TV cameraman and use the services of freelance camera assistants.

    I've been considering making contact with a local college/university and offering some sort of casual camera apprenticeship, but as I'm freelance and have no idea how much work I'll have in the future, I would not be able to actually employ them. I'd be offering them training and request them on my jobs.

    From what I've read here, is this not something I should consider doing?
    Originally posted by Guesses
    That doesn't mean you can't employ people. Zero hour contracts may not be liked by some but they are legal.
    • Potbellypig
    • By Potbellypig 8th Oct 19, 2:09 PM
    • 542 Posts
    • 392 Thanks
    Potbellypig
    • #9
    • 8th Oct 19, 2:09 PM
    • #9
    • 8th Oct 19, 2:09 PM
    You are aware I haven't done anything yet, right? And I agree that I'm naiive, but that's why I'm here trying to get information.

    So far, what you've said has taught me nothing. What are the risks? And how would this affect my reputation?

    I thought I was trying to do a good thing (give someone training and a way into an industry).
    Originally posted by Supersonos
    Nothing stopping you doing that. What has been explained to you is there are legalities to it all which you need to stringently follow.
    • Guesses
    • By Guesses 8th Oct 19, 3:19 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Guesses
    Nothing stopping you doing that. What has been explained to you is there are legalities to it all which you need to stringently follow.
    Originally posted by Potbellypig
    Would you explain the legalities?

    What is illegal about me offering someone work but not employing them directly? I don't directly employ the camera assistants I currently use, but I believe this is all ok?

    How would that be different to me offering training to someone from a college and giving them the skills to become a camera assistant themselves?
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 8th Oct 19, 7:27 PM
    • 40,153 Posts
    • 37,557 Thanks
    Savvy_Sue
    There are strict guidelines around apprenticeships. If you can't guarantee work throughout the year, at times which allow the apprentice to attend college, it won't fly.
    Still knitting!
    Completed: TWO adult cardigans, 3 baby jumpers, 3 shawls, 1 sweat band, 3 pairs baby bootees, 2 sets of handwarmers, 1 Wise Man Knitivity figure + 1 sheep, 2 pairs socks, 3 balaclavas, multiple hats and poppies, 3 peony flowers, 4 butterflies ...
    Current projects: pink balaclava (for myself), seaman's hat, about to start another cardigan!
    • Guesses
    • By Guesses 8th Oct 19, 7:44 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Guesses
    There are strict guidelines around apprenticeships. If you can't guarantee work throughout the year, at times which allow the apprentice to attend college, it won't fly.
    Originally posted by Savvy_Sue
    Perhaps apprenticeship was the wrong word to use.

    Essentially, how can I help a young person who wants to work in the TV industry get work without then inadvertently being held responsible for them?
    • Brynsam
    • By Brynsam 8th Oct 19, 10:29 PM
    • 2,356 Posts
    • 1,772 Thanks
    Brynsam
    That doesn't mean you can't employ people. Zero hour contracts may not be liked by some but they are legal.
    Originally posted by General Grant
    Sure - but the moment you employ someone you are on the hook for all sorts of employer liabilities such as registering for PAYE, taking out the necessary insurances, issuing contracts of employment...
    • Marcon
    • By Marcon 8th Oct 19, 10:32 PM
    • 1,338 Posts
    • 1,056 Thanks
    Marcon
    Would you explain the legalities?

    What is illegal about me offering someone work but not employing them directly? I don't directly employ the camera assistants I currently use, but I believe this is all ok?

    How would that be different to me offering training to someone from a college and giving them the skills to become a camera assistant themselves?
    Originally posted by Guesses
    You need to do your own research rather than expecting to be spoonfed. Far too much for any one person to explain here, and pointless to do so when getting yourself a decent and up to date book on the subject, or researching online (e.g. https://www.gov.uk/browse/employing-people or ACAS's website) has plenty of information.
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 8th Oct 19, 11:12 PM
    • 40,153 Posts
    • 37,557 Thanks
    Savvy_Sue
    You could also talk to the college and see if there's a need for placements. There might or might not be a match between when you need help and when they need the placements, but it's somewhere to start.

    However ... I may be stating something VERY obvious here, but sometimes an extra pair of hands is more of a liability than a help, at least initially. It takes time to explain what it is you're doing, how you're doing it, and why you're doing it that way. And you may need to explain it more than once. So the time to do it is not when you're rushed off your feet ...

    (Dreadful memories of several situations where I have had to explain the same things over and over and OVER again to people who were apparently incapable of retaining anything I said, or retrieving anything they wrote down in their notebook. Even saying "you need to type this and hit return", it would take at least a minute to start typing ... and in one case there would be a gasp of shock when ANYTHING on the screen changed IN ANY WAY, even though it was supposed to do so.)
    Still knitting!
    Completed: TWO adult cardigans, 3 baby jumpers, 3 shawls, 1 sweat band, 3 pairs baby bootees, 2 sets of handwarmers, 1 Wise Man Knitivity figure + 1 sheep, 2 pairs socks, 3 balaclavas, multiple hats and poppies, 3 peony flowers, 4 butterflies ...
    Current projects: pink balaclava (for myself), seaman's hat, about to start another cardigan!
    • Andy L
    • By Andy L 9th Oct 19, 9:50 AM
    • 10,179 Posts
    • 9,362 Thanks
    Andy L
    You could offer them a zero hour contract as a trainee. But that's not a particularly attractive offer
    • Potbellypig
    • By Potbellypig 9th Oct 19, 10:56 AM
    • 542 Posts
    • 392 Thanks
    Potbellypig
    Would you explain the legalities?

    What is illegal about me offering someone work but not employing them directly? I don't directly employ the camera assistants I currently use, but I believe this is all ok?

    How would that be different to me offering training to someone from a college and giving them the skills to become a camera assistant themselves?
    Originally posted by Guesses
    As someone has stated, there's a lot to answer in all these questions you're asking. You're not going to find the definitive answer on this thread. But going around offering ''free training'' to people, no matter how well your intentions are, is fraught with danger. If you are going to go down this route, I'd make sure all your bases are fully covered from laws on working regulations, to insurances, to tax implications. Good luck.
    • Guesses
    • By Guesses 9th Oct 19, 1:57 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Guesses
    Thanks for the replies. It's something I've been pondering for a while because, when I was in my twenties, there were plenty of companies (BBC, ITV regions etc.) who would employ people as trainees and give the necessary training to become a camera operator - college and university will never be able to offer the correct training to actually work in television/film.

    These days, the main broadcasters don't really have technical staff and most programmes are now made by independent companies, who just employ freelancers on short-term contracts for the days they're actually shooting a programme.

    I'm no businessman and have no interest in employing someone and taking-on the various legalities so it sounds like it's a non-starter, but it's a shame as I have no idea how young people will get into the industry these days. There's a lot of well-paid TV work out there for someone to have, but it seems I can't help anyone get there.
    Last edited by Guesses; 09-10-2019 at 2:01 PM.
    • Malthusian
    • By Malthusian 9th Oct 19, 3:18 PM
    • 6,959 Posts
    • 11,230 Thanks
    Malthusian
    Thanks for the replies. It's something I've been pondering for a while because, when I was in my twenties, there were plenty of companies (BBC, ITV regions etc.) who would employ people as trainees and give the necessary training to become a camera operator - college and university will never be able to offer the correct training to actually work in television/film.
    Originally posted by Guesses
    There probably shouldn't be so many people doing film studies courses after being conned into thinking they're training to be the next Tarantino, in that case. But the university racket is what it is.

    I'm no businessman and have no interest in employing someone and taking-on the various legalities so it sounds like it's a non-starter, but it's a shame as I have no idea how young people will get into the industry these days.
    As freelancers on short-term contracts, from the sound of it. Plus filming their own projects.

    Making a living in a creative industry is never easy. Most of the output is, without being judgmental, worthless, and compensated accordingly. This is not the case if your output is flipping burgers.

    If you can employ somebody as a trainee, and train them up while simultaneously they add value to your business by taking work off your hands and allowing you to take on jobs that you couldn't handle by yourself, there's nothing stopping you.

    If they can't make you money, then if they want you to train them up they should pay you. For the same reason they would pay a driving instructor for lessons or pay the CII for a qualification in insurance. If you're interested in this area then perhaps you should consider offering training courses for aspiring filmmakers.
    • Guesses
    • By Guesses 9th Oct 19, 4:17 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Guesses
    There probably shouldn't be so many people doing film studies courses after being conned into thinking they're training to be the next Tarantino, in that case. But the university racket is what it is.
    Originally posted by Malthusian
    Absolutely correct. I fell for it, spent three years at university and came out the other end with not a single skill necessary to get a job. I had to start at the very bottom as a runner and work hard/pull strings to side-step into the camera department (which I was very lucky to achieve - the camera department is notoriously hard to get into).

    I'd love to give some other keen, young people some of the opportunities I was given - ideally before they go to university and spend thousands on a pointless degree. It's sad I'm unable to do so.
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