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  • FIRST POST
    • urshieb
    • By urshieb 4th Oct 19, 6:06 PM
    • 4Posts
    • 3Thanks
    urshieb
    Please help, cannot collect pension pot without form signing!!!
    • #1
    • 4th Oct 19, 6:06 PM
    Please help, cannot collect pension pot without form signing!!! 4th Oct 19 at 6:06 PM
    Please can someone advise where or how you get a financial adviser to sign a form - we are in a catch 22 situation. My husband had 4 options to collect his pension pot at 60 years old (which he was in May). However, the option to take the whole amount is the best one for us (he has other pensions and we have money tied up elsewhere for when we retire properly at 66yrs). As the fund is over 30,000 the government stipulate that you must seek financial advice, they sign a form verifying that you have had advice and your fund is then released - WRONG!!! Try getting a financial adviser to sign the form who doesn't refuse to sign it unless you allow them to take control of your fund, and this advice does not come cheap, we are not bothered about the cost we just want the form signing. It is ONE piece of paper verifying that you have had advice. We have tried several financial advisers, one even came to the house, our daughter is an accountant, we are intelligent people and know exactly what we are doing. The adviser agreed that if we only took the 25% that we can take instead of the whole fund, my husband would have to live to be 108yrs to collect the rest as the GAR and monthly payment is rubbish. We have complained to Royal London (who the pension is now with) they agree and sympathise with us, stating that unfortunately they have found that a lot of people are in the same situation. The fund used to be with the Co-op prior to Royal London taking over and it was always planned for us to take the whole amount to clear our mortgage. This has gone on since 10 weeks prior to my husbands birthday (when we had to register his intentions). Please Please can anyone tell us how to get this blooming form signed.
Page 2
    • ZingPowZing
    • By ZingPowZing 6th Oct 19, 3:17 PM
    • 273 Posts
    • 96 Thanks
    ZingPowZing
    Dox - If I had followed the advice of my first adviser, I would already have forfeit more in subsequent gains to the value of my pension than I am likely to earn in the rest of my working life. Don't try to tell me which Financial Adviser came to the correct recommendation, the first more or less admitted he was covering his own behind but his fee was assured, the second had his eyes on commission.
    • ZingPowZing
    • By ZingPowZing 6th Oct 19, 4:07 PM
    • 273 Posts
    • 96 Thanks
    ZingPowZing
    Plus, the bit that seems wholly illogical:
    If the Financial Adviser recommends "do nothing", and urshieb's husband decides to transfer, how can the FA justify a refusal to sign a form testifying to the fact that he has provided urshieb's husband with financial advice?
    Yet I can assure urshieb that the Financial Ombudsman will stick up for the adviser in this situation.
    It's all legit!

    There's a lot of cant about Financial Advisers protecting "people like us" from ourselves but, to the outsider, parts of the process looks quite unfair.
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 6th Oct 19, 4:48 PM
    • 31,632 Posts
    • 19,619 Thanks
    xylophone
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=6032686&page=7

    Post 133 seems to cover the ground.
    • ZingPowZing
    • By ZingPowZing 6th Oct 19, 4:58 PM
    • 273 Posts
    • 96 Thanks
    ZingPowZing
    Alternatively - as this forum is populated with Financial Advisers - the op should maybe just ask which of you is willing to admit your trade with a signature on the relevant form.
    • ZingPowZing
    • By ZingPowZing 6th Oct 19, 5:49 PM
    • 273 Posts
    • 96 Thanks
    ZingPowZing
    Thank you for your replies. We know it costs a lot for an IFA to sign the form, its just finding one that will sign it. It is literally one piece of paper verifying that we have taken advice - which we did, but all they were interested in was taking over our finances! Royal London have not offered any advice other than an extra complaint form to take the complaint further and explain that whilst they sympathise their hands are tied until the form is signed. It is over 40,000 but once all the taxes (which we are fully conversant with) are taken out it wont be a lot more. We will travel anywhere in the UK and pay the fee to get it signed.
    Originally posted by urshieb
    Disgraceful state of affairs.
    • Triumph13
    • By Triumph13 6th Oct 19, 5:58 PM
    • 1,596 Posts
    • 2,248 Thanks
    Triumph13
    Disgraceful state of affairs.
    Originally posted by ZingPowZing
    Yes, but don't blame the IFAs. Blame the courts and regulators who have been finding against IFAs and pension firms even when the customer ignored very clear recommendations not to do the stupid thing they did. If the IFA and their insurer knows that no matter how hard they advise someone not to do something, if the customer goes ahead anyway then the IFA will still get blamed for not having advised against it even harder, then what on earth are they supposed to do?
    • ZingPowZing
    • By ZingPowZing 6th Oct 19, 6:26 PM
    • 273 Posts
    • 96 Thanks
    ZingPowZing
    Poor lambs.

    I assume the FA is refusing to trouser his fee in the event of not being able to persuade his client.
    • sandsy
    • By sandsy 6th Oct 19, 9:56 PM
    • 1,523 Posts
    • 938 Thanks
    sandsy
    Just for the record, I'm not a financial adviser and have a healthy scepticism of the quality of financial advice but I think the legislative intent of the advice requirement is sound. And most - but not all - of the financial advisers on this forum speak a lot of sense.
    • jamesd
    • By jamesd 7th Oct 19, 4:33 AM
    • 23,495 Posts
    • 15,831 Thanks
    jamesd
    Government were really worried that people like you wouldn't see the value in the valuable guaranteed products they hold.
    Originally posted by sandsy
    No, government wasn't. The original freedoms had no advice requirement.

    The Commons pensions committee was worried and unfortunately the government responded to those thoughts with a change that typically requires uneconomic advice not to do things like taking a bad GAR.

    "Typically" means common value, circumstances and advice costs, not million Pound DB transfers.
    • MEM62
    • By MEM62 7th Oct 19, 11:34 AM
    • 2,898 Posts
    • 2,578 Thanks
    MEM62
    Please can someone advise where or how you get a financial adviser to sign a form.
    Originally posted by urshieb
    Financial Advisers do not just 'sign forms'. The policy you have has a GAR and therefore the advisor is obligated to conduct a full review before making any recommendations. Also, this type of transaction is high risk from the advisors point of view and this will be reflected in his charges.

    You may consider that you are financially sophisticated and only need a 'rubber stamping exercise' from an advisor but the regulations do not work that way. There have been many cases where insistent clients and those that are financially astute enough to know the risk in a transaction have complained to the regulator after the event and the regulator has found against the advisor. This is why it is high risk for the advisor and may do not wat to be involved in this area of the business.
    • urshieb
    • By urshieb 17th Oct 19, 12:40 AM
    • 4 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    urshieb
    Firstly we are NOT likely to complain about an adviser who TICKS the 3 boxes (YES the 3 tick boxes regardless of who believes this or not, I will scan it and post it if need be) that confirms we have taken advice. I resent this suggestion, the current blame and claim climate drives us crazy.
    Furthermore, they are NOT signing to say that they advise us to take the whole amount, disagree with us taking it or anything, simply that they have run through options.
    Of the 4 options we want the one that states my husband can take the whole amount. We are highly intelligent people, I claimed my NHS pension when I was 55yrs old, the lump sum is invested. My husband has other pensions to collect when he retires at 66yrs.
    • OldBeanz
    • By OldBeanz 17th Oct 19, 4:11 AM
    • 869 Posts
    • 679 Thanks
    OldBeanz
    You are not likely to complain but can and can sue. That's the whole gist of the information you are being given. The IFA needs to do more than run through the options. Whether people believe tha law is an !!! or that pension freedom does not exist, that's the law.That's why it is so difficult to find an IFA who will rubber stamp and sign your form.
    Perhaps your daughter could create a plan for the IFA showing tha you will have sufficient index linked pensions to ensure you both or the survivor will still have a comfortable life style without this pension.
    My wife had a small DB pension (prior to the present arrangements) and the company were reluctant to allow a transfer. She showed she had sufficient funds from other DB pensions and in the event of her death I would continue to have sufficient funds. The pension went to fill the gap caused by the increase in pension ages.The Government rules at that time gave pension freedoms to those with a guaranteed income of 20k pa. A proven figure of circa 25k index linked for a survivor would perhaps give an IFA more confidence. That would perhaps be a better starting point for the process.
    Last edited by OldBeanz; 17-10-2019 at 4:16 AM.
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 17th Oct 19, 7:30 AM
    • 16,276 Posts
    • 19,531 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    OP, why not use an adviser who will sign as long as they manage your fund?
    If so, do that, then once the funds are released from RL to them , tell the adviser you no longer wish to use their services and cash it all in.
    Yes you will need to pay their fee for the transfer but since you are seemingly content to pay a big whack of tax for doing it in one go, think of it as just another tax.
    Last edited by AnotherJoe; 17-10-2019 at 7:32 AM.
    • ZingPowZing
    • By ZingPowZing 17th Oct 19, 9:49 AM
    • 273 Posts
    • 96 Thanks
    ZingPowZing
    Firstly we are NOT likely to complain about an adviser who TICKS the 3 boxes (YES the 3 tick boxes regardless of who believes this or not, I will scan it and post it if need be) that confirms we have taken advice. I resent this suggestion, the current blame and claim climate drives us crazy.
    Furthermore, they are NOT signing to say that they advise us to take the whole amount, disagree with us taking it or anything, simply that they have run through options.
    Of the 4 options we want the one that states my husband can take the whole amount. We are highly intelligent people, I claimed my NHS pension when I was 55yrs old, the lump sum is invested. My husband has other pensions to collect when he retires at 66yrs.
    Originally posted by urshieb
    You're right to be angry imo
    The bald fact is that IFAs refuse to acknowledge the work they are paid for; finesse it how you will.
    • Malthusian
    • By Malthusian 17th Oct 19, 10:53 AM
    • 7,008 Posts
    • 11,296 Thanks
    Malthusian
    Firstly we are NOT likely to complain about an adviser who TICKS the 3 boxes (YES the 3 tick boxes regardless of who believes this or not, I will scan it and post it if need be) that confirms we have taken advice.
    Originally posted by urshieb
    You haven't taken advice so naturally they are not going to lie by ticking the box.

    Advice is full fact-finding followed by a formal recommendation to take a particular course of action, which you then pay for. If any of these things have not yet happened they haven't given advice.

    Yes you are likely to complain. Essentially you want the IFA to tick the box to say they have given advice, and accept all the liability that comes with giving advice, without paying for that advice or the security that comes with it. People who want stuff for free are a high complaint risk.

    Furthermore, they are NOT signing to say that they advise us to take the whole amount, disagree with us taking it or anything, simply that they have run through options.
    Running through the options is not advice. Advice is a specific personalised recommendation. That requires full fact finding followed by that formal recommendation in writing, which you then pay for and get your box ticked.

    Alternatively - as this forum is populated with Financial Advisers - the op should maybe just ask which of you is willing to admit your trade with a signature on the relevant form.
    Originally posted by ZingPowZing
    In terms of regular contributors, this forum is mostly populated with DIY investors. (Plus a few advised investors, plus a handful of IFAs.)

    But mostly DIY investors who know what they are talking about. People who don't know what they are talking about either improve their understanding, or flounce after they get tired of being told they are wrong.

    Consequently most of the regular contributors grasp the definition of regulated advice, and what the OP needs to obtain and pay for before an adviser will tick the box.
    • coyrls
    • By coyrls 17th Oct 19, 11:02 AM
    • 1,286 Posts
    • 1,417 Thanks
    coyrls
    I claimed my NHS pension when I was 55yrs old, the lump sum is invested.
    Originally posted by urshieb
    Please can you explain what you mean by this?
    • atush
    • By atush 17th Oct 19, 11:53 AM
    • 18,001 Posts
    • 11,437 Thanks
    atush
    "Pension freedom" is skewing away from its principles.
    People are forced to take advice from IFAs.
    Loads of people are getting the wrong advice because the first concern of an IFA, as in this case, is to cover his own sorry behind.
    As has been stated, there is no point in complaining because the IFA is doing "nothing wrong."
    High time the process was under review.
    Originally posted by ZingPowZing
    You are skewed due to your poor planning and choices
    • SonOf
    • By SonOf 17th Oct 19, 12:05 PM
    • 1,786 Posts
    • 2,046 Thanks
    SonOf
    Firstly we are NOT likely to complain about an adviser who TICKS the 3 boxes (YES the 3 tick boxes regardless of who believes this or not, I will scan it and post it if need be) that confirms we have taken advice. I resent this suggestion, the current blame and claim climate drives us crazy.
    You may say that now. you may be correct. You may also be the type that cannot resist the when the cold calls telling you that you can earn tens or hundreds of thousands by complaining. Nobody knows what type of person you are. And its largely irrelevant if you are or you are not because there are plenty out there that cannot resist compensation chasing.

    Furthermore, they are NOT signing to say that they advise us to take the whole amount, disagree with us taking it or anything, simply that they have run through options.
    Its a lot more than just running through the options. It has to be regulated advice. It cannot be guidance.

    Of the 4 options we want the one that states my husband can take the whole amount. We are highly intelligent people, I claimed my NHS pension when I was 55yrs old, the lump sum is invested. My husband has other pensions to collect when he retires at 66yrs.
    I'm sorry but that this alone gives me cause to question your intelligence. Yes, there are scenarios where that may work out best but there certain things there do lead to questions which could result in you being seen to have done the wrong thing.

    You're right to be angry imo
    The bald fact is that IFAs refuse to acknowledge the work they are paid for; finesse it how you will.
    Again, your scenario saw you disagree with a service provided by an FA and it resulted in you finding an IFA that did what you want. Yet you are critical of IFAs and not the FA. Despite you going to the FOS about the FA and losing. And noting that not one contributor in this section agreed with you.
    • POPPYOSCAR
    • By POPPYOSCAR 17th Oct 19, 12:08 PM
    • 13,006 Posts
    • 29,071 Thanks
    POPPYOSCAR
    OP I feel your pain.

    A sledgehammer to crack a nut comes to mind.
    • ZingPowZing
    • By ZingPowZing 17th Oct 19, 5:20 PM
    • 273 Posts
    • 96 Thanks
    ZingPowZing
    You haven't taken advice so naturally they are not going to lie by ticking the box.

    Yes you are likely to complain. Essentially you want the IFA to tick the box to say they have given advice, and accept all the liability that comes with giving advice, without paying for that advice or the security that comes with it. People who want stuff for free are a high complaint risk.
    Consequently most of the regular contributors grasp the definition of regulated advice, and what the OP needs to obtain and pay for before an adviser will tick the box.
    Originally posted by Malthusian
    I don't think urshieb could have made herself clearer in the original post. They don't want free advice, they want a financial adviser to acknowledge that he has provided financial advice on the form necessary to transfer a pension.

    However, Son Of stated last week: "Advisers are required to sign a declaration on the application form of a provider.. This was clarified by the pensions regulator around a year ago. Prior to that, advisers could refuse."
    If Son Of is correct in this assertion, urshieb's troubles are solved: they can compel the adviser to sign the three tick boxes (after buying the advice, naturally).
    Admittedly, Son Of cannot provide a link to this requirement, and I have yet to see it confirmed on any official site, so it would be useful to the OP if other of the FA brethren can provide evidence that this is indeed the case.
    Last edited by ZingPowZing; 17-10-2019 at 5:25 PM.
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