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  • FIRST POST
    • Jonamora
    • By Jonamora 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    • 1Posts
    • 0Thanks
    Jonamora
    Electric cars
    • #1
    • 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    Electric cars 24th Jan 17 at 5:11 PM
    Just wanted people's opinions on buying an electric car?

    Before long all cars will be electric and therfore is it best to sell petrol car at full value and invest in electric car.

    I don't want to start a new finance deals for 4 years and be complete but then left with and cat nobody wants or has resale value because all are electric.....thoughts

    Jonathan
Page 2
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 24th Jan 17, 8:33 PM
    • 25,551 Posts
    • 25,116 Thanks
    AdrianC
    BTW, if work are paying for your private-use electricity (and, yes, that includes commuting), I do hope you're declaring it as a benefit in kind?

    Point 5.5 on here...
    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/519209/factsheet-tax-implications-refresh.pdf
    If an employer provides electricity to an employee to charge their own car, a benefit in kind arises representing the cost of the electricity used, which must be reported to HMRC.
    • Stageshoot
    • By Stageshoot 24th Jan 17, 8:43 PM
    • 579 Posts
    • 651 Thanks
    Stageshoot
    Saying this as an electric car lover, (We have just purchased our 2nd) Bought our 1st 6 months ago and its been so good we got rid of our backup petrol car and got a second electric.

    So taking the above into account I would say.

    DON'T Until you have sat down with your head in spreadsheet and work out the costs and savings it can be a minefield and the costs and savings depend on where you live.

    DON'T Buy New. The Depreciation in the first few months is a killer.

    EG: Our latest one is a BMW i3 Battery Only. Got it as a 3month old PreReg with 57 miles on it.
    Showroom Price 41000 (Before the 4500 Gov Grant) so 36500 True on the road cost.
    At 3 months old and with only delivery mileage we paid 18000

    Work out if you are in an EV hotspot.
    Milton Keynes,, Get one no brainer
    Travel into Central London,, Get one no brainer

    Out in the sticks. really really think about the journeys you do and how far you travel etc etc.

    Milton Keynes is swimming with Rapid Charger and Destination Chargers 100s of them Rapid is 0-80% in 20mins or so. Milton Keynes you get free parking in the centre,

    Just up the road Northampton is a charging desert, if you cant charge at home you wont charge.

    Central London.. no Congestion Charge Saves 11.50 a day. Free on Street Parking in P&D Bays Saves 16 a day

    Realistically you are going to save more doing more miles in an Electric. The batteries have 8 year 100k warranties and there are taxis that have done 170k miles and only lost 15% of capacity, so the wear is turning out to be a non issue,.

    So if you do high miles you save on fuel more than low miles, save on servicing costs, EV servicing costs are minimal.

    EG: I drive from Nottinghamshire to Central London 3 days a week

    In an Eco Diesel paying for Congestion Charge and Parking it comes in at at about 55 a day

    In the i3 I charge overnight on E7 for 80p stop at Milton Keynes Coachway for a 20min rapid charge costs 1.50 then into London Park and charge during the day, on the way home rapid at Milton Keynes 1.50 so the whole day costs 3.80 and the miles are not ticking towards high servicing costs. and it costs me an hour extra on my day having to stop for the 2 charges in MK

    That is on the extreme side I know

    You can get a 500 Govt Grant to have a 32amp 7kw charger fitted at home. That charges in 3 to 4 hours (Very cheap on Eco7 overnight). There are a lot of 7kw destination chargers out and about (Probably a lot more than you would ever think) But the 20min rapid chargers are rare. and if you use the ones on the motorway network (Electric Highwayrobbery) at 6 for a 30min charge it would be cheaper to use petrol.

    There are loads of companies operating the charge points its the wild west out there. You need a pocket full of RFID Cards and Apps for different companies. Its all confusing.

    Saying that I would never go back to to a regular car until you drive a decent electric you dont realise how much fun and how civilised they are.

    But buying a brand new one or buying without working out the financial ins and outs of what you will save can be a real costly mistake.

    Don't try to convince yourself you will be hugging polar bears, its rubbish the only reason to buy one is if you sit down put the figures on a spreadsheet and work out if it will save you money,

    (If your employer pays your mileage or you travel into London it will). Otherwise wait and see what happens.

    Thats my 2p worth. As an Electric Car Convert & Lover of them
    • Richard53
    • By Richard53 24th Jan 17, 9:23 PM
    • 2,942 Posts
    • 2,444 Thanks
    Richard53
    Thats my 2p worth. As an Electric Car Convert & Lover of them
    Originally posted by Stageshoot
    Useful post, thanks.
    If someone is nice to you but rude to the waiter, they are not a nice person.
    • dacouch
    • By dacouch 24th Jan 17, 9:35 PM
    • 20,745 Posts
    • 12,854 Thanks
    dacouch
    Lovely, but "literally no running costs" is definitely an alternative truth, isn't it?
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    The cost of the tyres and insurance are paid for within eleven weeks from the savings I make on no congestion charge and the free parking.
    • mojo1
    • By mojo1 24th Jan 17, 11:28 PM
    • 998 Posts
    • 345 Thanks
    mojo1
    I am now on my second Nissan Leaf electric car. It's a great car, very well designed. Expensive on paper but you can get massive discounts on them, or get a used one. 2 year PCP deals are available, or longer. They are starting to hold value now, although many people still get short deals so they can upgrade regularly.

    At the moment you can get a grant for a home charger as well. If you don't have a driveway or garage you will need to rely on public charging, which is not ideal.

    They are very cheap to run. The Leaf is fun to drive to, electric acceleration is nice.

    I drove a lot of EVs. The Leaf is better than the Zoe and Ioniq I think, and while the i3 is good it's also expensive. Tesla is obviously great if you can afford it.

    Range has not been an issue for me. A little planning on longer trips is all that is required.
    • bob_a_builder
    • By bob_a_builder 25th Jan 17, 12:23 AM
    • 1,712 Posts
    • 830 Thanks
    bob_a_builder
    Central London.. no Congestion Charge Saves 11.50 a day
    Just to remind others of the need to register an electric car with CC zone BEFORE driving into CC zone ! otherwise it won't be free but a fine !

    Odd how they can spot a polluting HGV and give it a fine, but not spot a lesser polluting car and give it the free pass automatically
    Would have thought DVLA database would tell them all they need to know

    But they always like to work it in their favor
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 25th Jan 17, 4:41 AM
    • 9,615 Posts
    • 14,512 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Stick to petrol for the moment, it will be a long long time before we have the need and the technology for electric cars, not to mention the infrastructure required to facilitate them, ie power stations
    Originally posted by mr_accountant
    We already have the power stations to electrify the whole UK car fleet, with about half the supply coming from the ramped down gas capacity at night, and the other half from the reduced demand by oil refineries which is roughly 6kWh per gallon of petrol.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Blackbeard of Perranporth
    • By Blackbeard of Perranporth 25th Jan 17, 5:59 AM
    • 6,377 Posts
    • 37,214 Thanks
    Blackbeard of Perranporth
    And still the range is less than 100 miles! And the waste contamination from the battery is excluded.
    Cardiac Arrest - Electrical - Patient unconscious! Heart Attack - Plumbing - Patient conscious!
    Defibrillators Cannot Cure a Heart Attack!
    • agrinnall
    • By agrinnall 25th Jan 17, 8:46 AM
    • 22,818 Posts
    • 18,842 Thanks
    agrinnall
    And still the range is less than 100 miles!
    Originally posted by Blackbeard of Perranporth
    But improvements are coming all the time, the Tesla Model 3 claims a range of at least 215 miles (although as the UK web page includes a price in USD that might need to be taken with a pinch of salt).

    https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/model3
    • peter_the_piper
    • By peter_the_piper 25th Jan 17, 9:21 AM
    • 27,407 Posts
    • 38,372 Thanks
    peter_the_piper
    And still the range is less than 100 miles! And the waste contamination from the battery is excluded.
    Originally posted by Blackbeard of Perranporth
    I wonder what the % of people travel more than 100 miles per day, holidays excepted.
    I'd rather be an Optimist and be proved wrong than a Pessimist and be proved right.
    • kmb500
    • By kmb500 25th Jan 17, 9:46 AM
    • 496 Posts
    • 128 Thanks
    kmb500
    I wonder what the % of people travel more than 100 miles per day, holidays excepted.
    Originally posted by peter_the_piper
    I can easily do 100 miles in a day.
    Regular scenario (once every couple weeks): I go to my friend's, pick them up take us into town, then stop somewhere on the way back and do the trip in reverse. Whole thing is about 80 miles.
    I've also got relatives who live about 45 miles away who I see very frequently, probably drive there once every 2 months, that's a 100 mile day.


    It's not every day but it's not rare. But I don't live in a city; I think if you live in London it would be pretty easy to justify an electric car. There are probably lots of charging stations in London, and you don't do many miles, whereas I could drive both the journeys I just mentioned and wouldn't see any charging points on the way.
    • Rain Shadow
    • By Rain Shadow 25th Jan 17, 10:06 AM
    • 1,672 Posts
    • 3,046 Thanks
    Rain Shadow
    Crikey! How big are your solar panels if you can put 24kwh into a car in daylight hours?
    Call it 10 hours, so that is 2.4kW, PVs would need to be around 24m2 and follow the sun.
    Originally posted by facade
    Have you seen the OP's garden?
    You can pick your friends and you can pick your nose but you can't pick your friend's nose.
    • jeepjunkie
    • By jeepjunkie 25th Jan 17, 10:19 AM
    • 1,678 Posts
    • 1,478 Thanks
    jeepjunkie
    Saying this as an electric car lover, (We have just purchased our 2nd) Bought our 1st 6 months ago and its been so good we got rid of our backup petrol car and got a second electric.

    So taking the above into account I would say.

    DON'T Until you have sat down with your head in spreadsheet and work out the costs and savings it can be a minefield and the costs and savings depend on where you live.

    DON'T Buy New. The Depreciation in the first few months is a killer.

    EG: Our latest one is a BMW i3 Battery Only. Got it as a 3month old PreReg with 57 miles on it.
    Showroom Price 41000 (Before the 4500 Gov Grant) so 36500 True on the road cost.
    At 3 months old and with only delivery mileage we paid 18000

    Work out if you are in an EV hotspot.
    Milton Keynes,, Get one no brainer
    Travel into Central London,, Get one no brainer

    Out in the sticks. really really think about the journeys you do and how far you travel etc etc.

    Milton Keynes is swimming with Rapid Charger and Destination Chargers 100s of them Rapid is 0-80% in 20mins or so. Milton Keynes you get free parking in the centre,

    Just up the road Northampton is a charging desert, if you cant charge at home you wont charge.

    Central London.. no Congestion Charge Saves 11.50 a day. Free on Street Parking in P&D Bays Saves 16 a day

    Realistically you are going to save more doing more miles in an Electric. The batteries have 8 year 100k warranties and there are taxis that have done 170k miles and only lost 15% of capacity, so the wear is turning out to be a non issue,.

    So if you do high miles you save on fuel more than low miles, save on servicing costs, EV servicing costs are minimal.

    EG: I drive from Nottinghamshire to Central London 3 days a week

    In an Eco Diesel paying for Congestion Charge and Parking it comes in at at about 55 a day

    In the i3 I charge overnight on E7 for 80p stop at Milton Keynes Coachway for a 20min rapid charge costs 1.50 then into London Park and charge during the day, on the way home rapid at Milton Keynes 1.50 so the whole day costs 3.80 and the miles are not ticking towards high servicing costs. and it costs me an hour extra on my day having to stop for the 2 charges in MK

    That is on the extreme side I know

    You can get a 500 Govt Grant to have a 32amp 7kw charger fitted at home. That charges in 3 to 4 hours (Very cheap on Eco7 overnight). There are a lot of 7kw destination chargers out and about (Probably a lot more than you would ever think) But the 20min rapid chargers are rare. and if you use the ones on the motorway network (Electric Highwayrobbery) at 6 for a 30min charge it would be cheaper to use petrol.

    There are loads of companies operating the charge points its the wild west out there. You need a pocket full of RFID Cards and Apps for different companies. Its all confusing.

    Saying that I would never go back to to a regular car until you drive a decent electric you dont realise how much fun and how civilised they are.

    But buying a brand new one or buying without working out the financial ins and outs of what you will save can be a real costly mistake.

    Don't try to convince yourself you will be hugging polar bears, its rubbish the only reason to buy one is if you sit down put the figures on a spreadsheet and work out if it will save you money,

    (If your employer pays your mileage or you travel into London it will). Otherwise wait and see what happens.

    Thats my 2p worth. As an Electric Car Convert & Lover of them
    Originally posted by Stageshoot

    Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of electric cars, but...


    Driving around with the "two gallons" in the tank is not fun.
    In and around Edinburgh there are next to no charge points.
    Electric cars date and depreciate faster than any other car.
    Far to expensive to buy.
    Electric Highway run by !!!! Turpin.


    If I was going to buy new it'd be a Dacia @ 5995, much cheaper all round


    For example, a couple weeks ago I did a return trip from the outskirts of Edinburgh to the outskirts of Newcastle down the A68. Impossible in a Leaf, Zoe etc unless you go out of your way and take three times as long assuming charge points are working... *This trip was done with temps ~-3C with full car of people.


    Cheers


    PS I have solar panels but can't see what real use they would be after house load, hot water heating, heat pump... Plus the car would rarely be at home during peak sunlight hours.
    Last edited by jeepjunkie; 25-01-2017 at 10:21 AM.
    • almillar
    • By almillar 25th Jan 17, 1:06 PM
    • 8,149 Posts
    • 3,363 Thanks
    almillar
    Leafs are behind the game with 30kwh batteries - next year's new model will be 60kwh. Tesla are already 100kwh.
    It's not about being behind the game, it's about cost (yes, the upgrade to 30kWh was a bit minor). You're not seriously comparing a 90k Tesla (the 100kWh version) against a <30k Leaf, are you?
    Biggest bang for your buck, range wise, would be the new 41kWh Zoe for under 30k.
    I'm running a Zoe at the moment, and will be handing back in November. That was always the plan, run it for 2 years and hand back. Some people still want to own their cars, and despite being put off by dealers and fellow owners, buy, then are disappointed by very low trade in values. Nothing wrong with the cars, just leasing technicalities, and an uncertain market. If you are still worried about battery life, for example, don't be. That's old news.
    OP's plan to somehow get ahead of the game and avoid depreciation on a petrol car is waaaay too early. Diesels first anyway.

    If an employer provides electricity to an employee to charge their own car, a benefit in kind arises representing the cost of the electricity used, which must be reported to HMRC.
    This is such rubbish. Will cost far more to administer than anyone gains. I know of some chargers that are out of use now because the premises people are strangled by red tape. Public money spent on chargers, that can't be used. Well done HMRC!

    And still the range is less than 100 miles! And the waste contamination from the battery is excluded.
    Have a look at the 30kWh Leaf and 41kWh Zoe and 94(?)Ah i3, for 3 examples as to how you're wrong.
    Waste contamination from the battery? What's that? Is there more waste from an electric car than a petrol one, over their life?

    Electric cars date and depreciate faster than any other car.
    Far to expensive to buy.
    That's because of the market uncertainty of the new tech - that should go away, and the more complicated leases. That's why you should PCP one, like people do with ICE cars all the time.
    • RHemmings
    • By RHemmings 25th Jan 17, 1:06 PM
    • 2,093 Posts
    • 1,316 Thanks
    RHemmings
    I must admit that I am seriously considering one, but will probably do it in stages by starting with a plug in hybrid first.

    I have solar panels, and am retired so can do most charging during the day, rather than an overnight so I can make best use of those panels.

    I plan to get a test drive in an all electric Hyundai Ioniq shortly, which is currently the one all electric car on the market that might tempt me to jump straight to all electric as its (real world) range is big enough to cover every journey I make on one charge with the exception of the odd UK holiday in the west country. It is reasonably priced as well.
    Originally posted by Keep pedalling
    How do they get 280km range out of a 28kw/hr battery?

    I'd be happy to be corrected, but I must admit that I'm suspicious of a claim of 280km from a 28kw/hr battery under anything resembling normal driving conditions.

    BTW: In response to other posts saying that the Nissan Leaf was the biggest depreciating car ever, there appear to be specific reasons for that: https://transportevolved.com/2014/06/25/nissan-leaf-depreciating-quickly-can-grab-bargain/

    In more recent years, the increase in range of the new models has also hit the prices of smaller battery models considerably. If I only wanted a car to drive around the city I could buy an older Leaf as they are much cheaper now.

    Compared to petrol cars, electric cars are very significantly improving in technology. The improvement in petrol cars is slower. That in itself is a reason for depreciation of older models as they simply do a lot less, orientating people towards buying newer cars.

    I'm considering getting an electric car. However, I have no plans to buy a new one as the first year depreciation is simply too much. Though, when I looked at new petrol cars, the depreciation wasn't a world apart.
    • dannyrst
    • By dannyrst 25th Jan 17, 4:05 PM
    • 1,417 Posts
    • 723 Thanks
    dannyrst
    All the cheap PCP deals on Zoe's and Leaf's are gone. Stupidly expensive now. And if you drive a normal distance per anum the battery lease alone is similar to the cost regular fuel.
    Makes them very expensive short range city cars when you can walk/cycle for nothing or if going that little bit further train/tram/bus/taxi.
    Originally posted by jeepjunkie
    They are horrible cars, as is the i3. Nobody took EV's seriously and Tesla are going to reap the rewards with the Model 3 if they can meet demand and the quality is good.
    • Colin_Maybe
    • By Colin_Maybe 25th Jan 17, 4:45 PM
    • 4,758 Posts
    • 2,796 Thanks
    Colin_Maybe
    Lovely, but "literally no running costs" is definitely an alternative truth, isn't it?
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    'Alternate facts' in Trump speak
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 26th Jan 17, 7:18 AM
    • 9,615 Posts
    • 14,512 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    They are horrible cars, as is the i3. Nobody took EV's seriously and Tesla are going to reap the rewards with the Model 3 if they can meet demand and the quality is good.
    Originally posted by dannyrst
    Both the Tesla 3 and the Chevy Bolt are 200bhp 200 mile range cars that will cost about $30k in the states, though there are no plans to build a RHD version of the Bolt.

    Car and Driver got 190 miles out of the Bolt driving on freeways at 75mph.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 26th Jan 17, 10:00 AM
    • 3,080 Posts
    • 1,425 Thanks
    NigeWick
    I've been studying electric cars for a while now and will be buying one this year. It will ether be the Nissan Leaf or its replacement if available by the time I have the money.

    My reasoning is that the Leaf is well tried and tested as well as being built in this country. I am sure the replacement will be just as good quality. I can manage trips to family and holiday with regular stops for recharging whilst taking a comfort break. I fully realise others will not want to do the same.

    The Hyundai Ioniq has a greater range, but not vastly so. I'm sorry but I just don't trust myself to a Renault although the range is adequate but it takes longer to charge. To me, the BMW i3 just looks weird. The Tesla Model 3 will not be available for at least a couple of years due to some 400,000 pre orders.

    Diesel vehicles are starting to be banned from cities and I expect towns will follow suit. VW is starting to design and produce electric vehicles and in a few years it will be by the million and other makers will follow on as these machines become cheaper (without subsidies) than fossil burners. Evs cost less to maintain and when renewable electricity is far cheaper than coal, gas, diesel and nuclear it will just be a no brainer. The tipping point is really only a few years away as electric vehicles will be connected to the grid so as to even out generation and use. Imagine 3 million vehicles with 60kWh batteries as a back up. I saw someone mention the pollution form batteries. They will be recycled or reused as house/business electricity backup.

    Then we move on to autonomous vehicles. Once they are accepted and fully in use, there will be less need to actually own a car and those that do could go to work and then release their vehicle to taxi others until home time. These are interesting times.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 26th Jan 17, 10:03 AM
    • 25,551 Posts
    • 25,116 Thanks
    AdrianC
    I've been studying electric cars for a while now and will be buying one this year. It will ether be the Nissan Leaf or its replacement

    I'm sorry but I just don't trust myself to a Renault although the range is adequate but it takes longer to charge.
    Originally posted by NigeWick
    Charge time is limited by the battery capacity, and the battery capacity alone.

    Renault and Nissan are, to all intents and purposes, the same company and share the same technology.
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