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  • FIRST POST
    • Ford12345
    • By Ford12345 21st Oct 19, 12:22 AM
    • 3Posts
    • 1Thanks
    Ford12345
    Failure to send permit valid defence?
    • #1
    • 21st Oct 19, 12:22 AM
    Failure to send permit valid defence? 21st Oct 19 at 12:22 AM
    Facts to date are:
    1. Moved into flat with attached private (need a buzzer to get in) residential parking December 18.
    2. Managing agency (Choices) asked parking company (CPM) for permit, gave us a temporary code to show that a permit has been purchased.
    3. Permit never arrived; we asked a few times (mostly unrecorded phone calls to agency) over the next months, nothing happened. Unclear if due to agency being useless or the high rate of error delivering post to flat
    4. Between 30th March to 22nd April 19, receive 3 fines for 100. Discover temporary code expires after 2 or 3 days, apply more vigorous pressure to agency, finally get permit at the end of April.
    5. Appealed (internal and independent), even got an email from the agency saying they'd been told by CPM to appeal. Got rejected, ignored further communication.
    6. Getting silly threatening debt letters (Trace Debt), now each fine up to 160 somehow.


    I understand that nothing serious has happened yet, court case hasn't been processed etc. My questions are:

    It's not in dispute that there's clear signage saying permits needed to be displayed etc - so is it a valid defense to solely rely on my tenancy, their acknowledgement that permits had been purchased & that I can provide at least some emails showing we were chasing the missing permits?

    If I do decide to chance it and lose the case, whats the maximum cost per ticket I'd end up paying including court fees? I've read on this forum +49, but is that 100 + 49, or 160 + 49?
Page 1
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 21st Oct 19, 8:02 AM
    • 4,934 Posts
    • 7,251 Thanks
    Half_way
    • #2
    • 21st Oct 19, 8:02 AM
    • #2
    • 21st Oct 19, 8:02 AM
    what does the lease say regarding parking? does the space belong to the property?
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 21st Oct 19, 8:36 AM
    • 15,595 Posts
    • 16,360 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #3
    • 21st Oct 19, 8:36 AM
    • #3
    • 21st Oct 19, 8:36 AM
    Please read this

    https://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2016/11/residential-parking.html

    What does your lease/AST say about displaying a permit? Does it take primacy of contract over a parking scammers self-serving T & C?. If so the scammer may be trying to interfere with your leasehold right to peaceful enjoyment of your property, possibly an offence under The Landlord and Tenant Acts.

    Nine times out of ten of these tickets are scams so consider complaining to your MP, it can cause the scammer extra work.

    Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

    Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

    Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.



    There is only a very very remote chance that you would lose such a case if they were daft enough to take this to court, read this.


    https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/324523-ukpc-liable-for-trespass-success/

    Last edited by The Deep; 21-10-2019 at 8:42 AM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Ford12345
    • By Ford12345 21st Oct 19, 9:55 AM
    • 3 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Ford12345
    • #4
    • 21st Oct 19, 9:55 AM
    • #4
    • 21st Oct 19, 9:55 AM
    Thank you both.

    We're under an assured short-hold tenancy. The tenancy contract itself doesn't mention the parking area, although the flat was advertised with a sparking spot.

    The parking area is a part of a gated development with our flat, so I'd assume they are linked.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 21st Oct 19, 10:38 AM
    • 78,054 Posts
    • 91,595 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 21st Oct 19, 10:38 AM
    • #5
    • 21st Oct 19, 10:38 AM
    It's not in dispute that there's clear signage saying permits needed to be displayed etc - so is it a valid defense to solely rely on my tenancy, their acknowledgement that permits had been purchased & that I can provide at least some emails showing we were chasing the missing permits?
    Yes that's a valid defence. Search the forum for Union Jack and you can read what a canny Judge said about this issue.

    If I do decide to chance it and lose the case, whats the maximum cost per ticket I'd end up paying including court fees? I've read on this forum +49, but is that 100 + 49, or 160 + 49?
    100 plus 50 court fees, plus a tiny few quid in interest, that's it - under 200 - as long as you know how to argue against the fake 60. Some Judges have not yet sussed that a sum alleged to be 'damages for debt letters/business costs' can't be added to a parking charge that already includes those costs. That would be double recovery.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Ford12345
    • By Ford12345 21st Oct 19, 6:02 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Ford12345
    • #6
    • 21st Oct 19, 6:02 PM
    • #6
    • 21st Oct 19, 6:02 PM
    So on review of the cases linked, I think I'm correct in saying that these are specifically where the owner of the property has a lease detailing parking entitlement without reference to permits; this then supersedes whatever stitch up a management company signed with the parking company.

    I've asked Choices to confirm exactly on what basis the flat has access to the development parking. However, in case the lease is not favourable or Choices don't bother helping me (quite likely), are there cases which have been won on the basis that the parking company failed to deliver permits?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 21st Oct 19, 11:37 PM
    • 78,054 Posts
    • 91,595 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #7
    • 21st Oct 19, 11:37 PM
    • #7
    • 21st Oct 19, 11:37 PM
    are there cases which have been won on the basis that the parking company failed to deliver permits?
    Almost certainly because that leads to an argument of 'impossibility of performance of the alleged contract' and the fact that if the Claimant or their principal (managing agent idiots) dithered or delayed, or withheld permits, then they cannot possibly profit to the tune of 100 per day as a result.

    Do not expect to find transcripts of wins that match your case. Transcripts are rare, you do not just get sent one when you win in court, they cost money and most people do not bother to get one.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 22nd Oct 19, 9:46 AM
    • 15,595 Posts
    • 16,360 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #8
    • 22nd Oct 19, 9:46 AM
    • #8
    • 22nd Oct 19, 9:46 AM
    Have you discussed this with your landlord? Your right to parking does seem to lack clarity.

    Nine times out of ten of these tickets are scams so consider complaining to your MP, it can cause the scammer extra work.

    Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

    Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

    Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
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