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  • FIRST POST
    • urshieb
    • By urshieb 4th Oct 19, 6:06 PM
    • 4Posts
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    urshieb
    Please help, cannot collect pension pot without form signing!!!
    • #1
    • 4th Oct 19, 6:06 PM
    Please help, cannot collect pension pot without form signing!!! 4th Oct 19 at 6:06 PM
    Please can someone advise where or how you get a financial adviser to sign a form - we are in a catch 22 situation. My husband had 4 options to collect his pension pot at 60 years old (which he was in May). However, the option to take the whole amount is the best one for us (he has other pensions and we have money tied up elsewhere for when we retire properly at 66yrs). As the fund is over £30,000 the government stipulate that you must seek financial advice, they sign a form verifying that you have had advice and your fund is then released - WRONG!!! Try getting a financial adviser to sign the form who doesn't refuse to sign it unless you allow them to take control of your fund, and this advice does not come cheap, we are not bothered about the cost we just want the form signing. It is ONE piece of paper verifying that you have had advice. We have tried several financial advisers, one even came to the house, our daughter is an accountant, we are intelligent people and know exactly what we are doing. The adviser agreed that if we only took the 25% that we can take instead of the whole fund, my husband would have to live to be 108yrs to collect the rest as the GAR and monthly payment is rubbish. We have complained to Royal London (who the pension is now with) they agree and sympathise with us, stating that unfortunately they have found that a lot of people are in the same situation. The fund used to be with the Co-op prior to Royal London taking over and it was always planned for us to take the whole amount to clear our mortgage. This has gone on since 10 weeks prior to my husbands birthday (when we had to register his intentions). Please Please can anyone tell us how to get this blooming form signed.
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    • bowlhead99
    • By bowlhead99 18th Oct 19, 10:55 PM
    • 9,515 Posts
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    bowlhead99
    These guys any use? Free and impartial government guidance in right circumstances

    https://www.pensionwise.gov.uk/en/pension-type-tool/question-1
    Originally posted by Murielson
    Unfortunately the OP is not looking for someone to give them some free guidance. They are looking for paid regulated financial advice from a regulated professional with the right qualification to be able to confirm to the pension provider that they've had that.

    Speaking to a public sector employee who could guide them toward a choice, doesn't cut it. It could be useful for them in educating themselves towards coming to a conclusion - but they have already formed a conclusion anyway based on as much information as they think they want or need. From their perspective, now they just need specific tailored advice to be signed off along with the requisite supporting documents, to be able to go ahead with the choice.
    Last edited by bowlhead99; 18-10-2019 at 10:57 PM.
    • ZingPowZing
    • By ZingPowZing 19th Oct 19, 10:01 AM
    • 273 Posts
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    ZingPowZing
    HL can sign a form if it's factual and in line with the declaration of advice that they gave you.

    Is that the working assumption now? You said on Thursday that they could not.
    How does that square with the fact that HL refused before they read the wording?

    That other pension company that you could find that deals direct with DIY retail clients would not need an adviser to say they were setting up the transaction for an insistent client,

    For the benefit of anyone in this predicament, which company is this? Does it exist, in fact?

    The irony of this multi-week discussion is that everybody agrees that you shouldn't use Hargreaves Lansdown for advice on a DB transfer.

    I'll be happy when that is the case. In fact gemma888 was advised to contact HL with her DB pension on July28,
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=76394159 #7
    "they are very easy to listen to and helpful with people who don't understand how things work."
    Nobody on the forum demurred.
    • Thrugelmir
    • By Thrugelmir 19th Oct 19, 11:26 AM
    • 65,528 Posts
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    Thrugelmir
    I'll be happy when that is the case. In fact gemma888 was advised to contact HL with her DB pension on July28,
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=76394159 #7
    "they are very easy to listen to and helpful with people who don't understand how things work."
    Nobody on the forum demurred.
    Originally posted by ZingPowZing
    Following the FCA review the market has becomea very different place.

    ‘We have said repeatedly that, when advising on DB transfers, advisers should start from the position that a transfer is not suitable. It is deeply concerning and disappointing to see that transfers are still being recommended at the levels we have seen.
    The FCA has already started visiting some firms, starting with those most active in the market. These visits will allow the FCA to complete a full assessment of the firms’ approach to DB advice, focusing on key aspects of firms’ business models and processes which could give rise to harm.

    The FCA will also be writing to all firms where the potential for harm has been identified in the data the firm has supplied. This will set out the FCA's expectations and the actions firms should take.
    https://www.fca.org.uk/news/press-releases/fca-announces-further-action-defined-benefit-transfers
    ““there really is no such thing as ‘the future’, singular. There are only multiple, unforeseeable futures, which will never lose their capacity to take us by surprise.””
    ― Niall Ferguson
    • bowlhead99
    • By bowlhead99 19th Oct 19, 1:24 PM
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    • 17,319 Thanks
    bowlhead99
    HL can sign a form if it's factual and in line with the declaration of advice that they gave you.

    Is that the working assumption now? You said on Thursday that they could not.
    Originally posted by ZingPowZing
    They can sign it if it's true and if there are no rules to stop them. Though they may prefer not to.

    For example I can jump, though I can't do it in the queen's bedroom due to not having authorisation. And may prefer not to.

    You have in your files the declaration of advice that they gave you. So you know what they will confirm, although they shouldn't need to confirm it again because it is in the original declaration that you have. The form you asked them to sign was something that they couldn't confirm - or, if they had confirmed it by answering No to both questions, would have caused your transfer to fail.

    How does that square with the fact that HL refused before they read the wording?
    At risk of repeating myself:
    Truth to tell, the adviser never even looked at what he refused to sign.
    He had probably seen it before, or one like it from another firm, and knew that it would be asking him to acknowledge that he was helping an insistent client carry out a transaction and had fully documented the insistent client matters. As HL's policy in this area is not to help people carry out a transaction against advice, there was no point in him looking at it before politely declining. He just gave you a written declaration that he provided advice, and left it up to you to find a pensions firm that would be happy to proceed with that not-positive advice as documented by HL.
    Last edited by bowlhead99; 19-10-2019 at 1:28 PM.
    • ZingPowZing
    • By ZingPowZing 19th Oct 19, 1:30 PM
    • 273 Posts
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    ZingPowZing
    The FCA has already started visiting some firms, starting with those most active in the market. These visits will allow the FCA to complete a full assessment of the firms’ approach to DB advice, focusing on key aspects of firms’ business models and processes which could give rise to harm.
    -Thrugelmir

    May as well start with Hargreaves Lansdown; since the FCA are going round there anyway.
    • bowlhead99
    • By bowlhead99 19th Oct 19, 1:37 PM
    • 9,515 Posts
    • 17,319 Thanks
    bowlhead99

    That other pension company that you could find that deals direct with DIY retail clients would not need an adviser to say they were setting up the transaction for an insistent client,

    For the benefit of anyone in this predicament, which company is this? Does it exist, in fact?
    Originally posted by ZingPowZing
    AJ Bell Youinvest is an example of a company that takes business from investors direct rather than needing an intermediary to transact. Therefore they could not require an intermediary to say that they were facilitating a transaction for their insistent client.

    Per anecdotes from this forum they will allow transactions where advice has been received, without requiring the advice to be positive. I do not have first hand experience of whether that is still the case - my only transfers to them have been DC.
    • ZingPowZing
    • By ZingPowZing 19th Oct 19, 1:39 PM
    • 273 Posts
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    ZingPowZing
    They can sign it if it's true and if there are no rules to stop them. Though they may prefer not to.

    Except, bowlhead was explaining why they could not #46

    He had probably seen it before, or one like it from another firm,

    I don't believe that HL will sign a third party in any event but that is guesswork, as is bowlhead's statement.
    • ZingPowZing
    • By ZingPowZing 19th Oct 19, 1:42 PM
    • 273 Posts
    • 95 Thanks
    ZingPowZing
    [QUOTE=bowlhead99;76401203]AJ Bell Youinvest is an example of a company that takes business from investors direct rather than needing an intermediary to transact. Therefore they could not require an intermediary to say that they were facilitating a transaction for their insistent client.

    Per anecdotes from this forum they will allow transactions where advice has been received, without requiring the advice to be positive. I do not have first hand experience of whether that is still the case - my only transfers to them have been DC.[/QUOTE

    Potentially a useful way out for someone in the predicament, if verified.]
    • bowlhead99
    • By bowlhead99 19th Oct 19, 2:14 PM
    • 9,515 Posts
    • 17,319 Thanks
    bowlhead99
    AJ Bell Youinvest is an example of a company that takes business from investors direct rather than needing an intermediary to transact. Therefore they could not require an intermediary to say that they were facilitating a transaction for their insistent client.

    Per anecdotes from this forum they will allow transactions where advice has been received, without requiring the advice to be positive. I do not have first hand experience of whether that is still the case - my only transfers to them have been DC.
    Originally posted by bowlhead99
    Potentially a useful way out for someone in the predicament, if verified.
    Originally posted by ZingPowZing
    The last time I saw it come up was in your other thread a couple of months ago when xylophone mentioned it - not from the perspective of a customer but just that they had heard that they accepted transfers without positive advice ; the firm has been mentioned on threads here before.

    Also companies such as Virgin offer a stakeholder pension (and I understand stakeholder pensions don't have the luxury of being able to turn down incoming transfers, so long as they receive the information they need). Virgin deals with customers direct, rather than requiring an intermediary on the transaction, so any request for information about advice received could not require the adviser to say that the adviser was documenting the client as an insistent client in relation to the transfer - Virgin should not require the same language as your recipient pension firm demanded.
    • coyrls
    • By coyrls 19th Oct 19, 9:21 PM
    • 1,286 Posts
    • 1,417 Thanks
    coyrls
    How does that square with the fact that HL refused before they read the wording?
    Originally posted by ZingPowZing
    Because they knew that the firm asking for the signature only accepts business via an intermediary and that they could not be the intermediary (because they do not place business with other firms).
    • ZingPowZing
    • By ZingPowZing 21st Oct 19, 1:16 PM
    • 273 Posts
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    ZingPowZing
    Because they knew that the firm asking for the signature only accepts business via an intermediary and that they could not be the intermediary (because they do not place business with other firms).

    Maybe. But the layman doesn't. And it's not something Hargreaves Lansdown tell a client when they are pitching for a DB pension, in my experience. Sure, it's there in 10pt new-roman on the back of an A4 sheet of paper "What you should know about transferring a DB pension," slipped between the rest of their handouts but, for obvious reasons, HL won't mention the difficulties faced by a client whom they take down that path: less time, less choice, less protection,no assistance -Ladies and gentlemen, introducing "the Hargreaves Lansdown experience."

    I know informed people on here will continue to say "caveat emptor" but for the general public it represents a miserable experience, like buying a television and finding you have to take the back off to change channel.
    Last edited by ZingPowZing; 21-10-2019 at 2:04 PM.
    • coyrls
    • By coyrls 21st Oct 19, 3:36 PM
    • 1,286 Posts
    • 1,417 Thanks
    coyrls
    Because they knew that the firm asking for the signature only accepts business via an intermediary and that they could not be the intermediary (because they do not place business with other firms).

    Maybe. But the layman doesn't. And it's not something Hargreaves Lansdown tell a client when they are pitching for a DB pension, in my experience. Sure, it's there in 10pt new-roman on the back of an A4 sheet of paper "What you should know about transferring a DB pension," slipped between the rest of their handouts but, for obvious reasons, HL won't mention the difficulties faced by a client whom they take down that path: less time, less choice, less protection,no assistance -Ladies and gentlemen, introducing "the Hargreaves Lansdown experience."

    I know informed people on here will continue to say "caveat emptor" but for the general public it represents a miserable experience, like buying a television and finding you have to take the back off to change channel.
    Originally posted by ZingPowZing
    I agree they are not very transparent about the status of their advice; you would need to do your own research and not rely on their material.
    • pip895
    • By pip895 21st Oct 19, 4:29 PM
    • 723 Posts
    • 398 Thanks
    pip895
    When I was considering my DB transfer I had initial discussions with three companies. Hargreaves Lansdown, Tideway and Drewberry. I discounted HL because the £1500 initial fee would have been a dead loss if they found against transferring - I don't remember there being any question about this.

    [Zing.. did this initial look provide a positive recommendation for you and the full assessment throw up something that changed it - I thought they said there wouldn't be any further charge if that happened but might be wrong about that..]

    HL were the most expensive of the three -Tideway the cheapest. Tideway also gave you an initial look see FOC which essentially served the same purpose as the £1500 offering from HL but they lacked the personal touch of Drewberry

    I ended up going with Drewberry and was very impressed - the process was much more involved than I imagined. During it they found a mistake in the figures sent by my pension company and uncovered an error that when corrected gained me several times more than their fee. Im not sure that either the more automated processes of Tideway or HL would have been so thorough Anyway it wasn't easy money for them I would say - I hate to think how much it would have cost at solicitor rates for example.
    • ZingPowZing
    • By ZingPowZing 21st Oct 19, 4:40 PM
    • 273 Posts
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    ZingPowZing
    [Zing.. did this initial look provide a positive recommendation for you and the full assessment throw up something that changed it - I thought they said there wouldn't be any further charge if that happened but might be wrong about that..]

    No, they were more cute than that, pip.
    Initially they said that they should be able to provide a clear indication after the analysis; after the analysis they said my case was "marginal" and "in the balance."
    Bear in mind, at this stage the clock is running down on the CETV; the HL client is unlikely to find an alternative adviser willing to rush it through in time.
    • pip895
    • By pip895 21st Oct 19, 5:07 PM
    • 723 Posts
    • 398 Thanks
    pip895
    No, they were more cute than that, pip.
    Initially they said that they should be able to provide a clear indication after the analysis; after the analysis they said my case was "marginal" and "in the balance."
    Bear in mind, at this stage the clock is running down on the CETV; the HL client is unlikely to find an alternative adviser willing to rush it through in time.
    Originally posted by ZingPowZing
    I remember the clock ticking thing well! I think we ended up with three CETV's - all at the pension companies expense luckily as it was their issue. I am certainly very glad I didn't go with the HL option. I had to get them to supply an illustration as I was moving the money to them and you wouldn't believe the number of permutations of messing it up they managed
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 21st Oct 19, 5:24 PM
    • 31,632 Posts
    • 19,619 Thanks
    xylophone
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=6012796&page=2&highlight=

    Post 32 - a poster with a positive experience of a GMP only transfer - that said, it was not a very high CETV and was all pre 88 so would not have been index linked in payment.
    • ZingPowZing
    • By ZingPowZing 21st Oct 19, 5:40 PM
    • 273 Posts
    • 95 Thanks
    ZingPowZing
    I remember the clock ticking thing well! I think we ended up with three CETV's - all at the pension companies expense luckily as it was their issue. I am certainly very glad I didn't go with the HL option. I had to get them to supply an illustration as I was moving the money to them and you wouldn't believe the number of permutations of messing it up they managed
    Originally posted by pip895
    Amen.

    For me, the stakes were far higher.

    I blundered through and am now in a position to give thanks for being able to to see through the machinations of the HL adviser. His recommendation would now have cost me ten times his fee.
    But it could have been even worse. If HL had approved my transfer, I would likely have invested 20% each in Woodford and Hargreaves Lansdown.

    Which just goes to show how completely the stars rule our lives.
    Last edited by ZingPowZing; 21-10-2019 at 9:26 PM. Reason: further thought
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