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  • FIRST POST
    • blizeH
    • By blizeH 3rd Oct 19, 1:34 PM
    • 1,282Posts
    • 583Thanks
    blizeH
    With gas boilers potentially being banned in new homes from 2025, should we look at alternatives now
    • #1
    • 3rd Oct 19, 1:34 PM
    With gas boilers potentially being banned in new homes from 2025, should we look at alternatives now 3rd Oct 19 at 1:34 PM
    We need to replace our boiler ASAP and I'm wondering if it's worth looking at heat/air pumps? They're very expensive on the up front cost but it looks like in the (very) long run the savings make it worthwhile?


    I'm a bit concerned about the work involved though, and the physical space it uses. Any thoughts please? Thanks
Page 4
    • GreatApe
    • By GreatApe 20th Oct 19, 12:47 AM
    • 4,022 Posts
    • 2,977 Thanks
    GreatApe
    I think you would need the top-up. You are obliged to heat stored hot water to 60C at least every so often as a precaution against Legionella.
    Originally posted by Reed_Richards
    A small tank for water needs
    Air to air heat pumps for home heating needs
    This mix would probably be best

    The tank can be heated at night rate electric
    The heat pumps on continuously during any and all times they are necessary

    Air to air heat pumps especially floor standing (easier to fit and more efficient) can probably be done rapidly and at low cost for the 29 million or so existing properties. For new builds it can be a fully wet system if it makes sense.

    I'm not a fan of state mega projects but perhaps this is one where they can lead with the social stock. 4.8 million or so social homes. Perhaps £3k per property to buy and install there small air to air heat pumps per property. £15 billion cost done over a 10 year period. Should create the skills and business needed to then deploy it on the other 25 million privately owned homes at affordable prices
    • GreatApe
    • By GreatApe 20th Oct 19, 12:56 AM
    • 4,022 Posts
    • 2,977 Thanks
    GreatApe
    I am with Bulb on an E7 tariff at about 15p/9p including VAT? I had a look at the EDF MSE special tariff on line but couldnít find the bit about weekends being E7. That would appeal to me so if you have a link could you put it up here please.

    Thanks
    Originally posted by JKenH

    The EDF tariff looks really good
    8p all weekend and 9pm to 7am weekdays and 16p at all other times
    Not sure what the standing charge is check that it's reasonable

    https://www.edfenergy.com/electric-cars/tariffs#footnote-ev-8p-per-kwh-off-peak-charging-single-rate
    • JKenH
    • By JKenH 20th Oct 19, 11:39 AM
    • 1,113 Posts
    • 3,237 Thanks
    JKenH
    The EDF tariff looks really good
    8p all weekend and 9pm to 7am weekdays and 16p at all other times
    Not sure what the standing charge is check that it's reasonable

    https://www.edfenergy.com/electric-cars/tariffs#footnote-ev-8p-per-kwh-off-peak-charging-single-rate
    Originally posted by GreatApe
    Thanks for that. The standing charge for me would be 27p per day (30p in Yorkshire) and the day rate is about 3p more than I pay, with the night rate 1p less. So I would need to to the sums BUT you have to have a smart meter and an electric car. I donít have an EV at the moment.
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, Nissan Leaf (plus some ICEs )
    • GreatApe
    • By GreatApe 20th Oct 19, 12:49 PM
    • 4,022 Posts
    • 2,977 Thanks
    GreatApe
    Thanks for that. The standing charge for me would be 27p per day (30p in Yorkshire) and the day rate is about 3p more than I pay, with the night rate 1p less. So I would need to to the sums BUT you have to have a smart meter and an electric car. I donít have an EV at the moment.
    Originally posted by JKenH

    Oh I wasn't aware you had to have an EV to get that tariff

    I guess it makes sense as they wouldn't want just anyone to have that tariff As I reckon the average person would save about 25% Vs a normal tariff
    • michaels
    • By michaels 3rd Nov 19, 2:26 PM
    • 22,921 Posts
    • 104,766 Thanks
    michaels
    I think discussion of the issues has moved to the news thread but is better here.

    GreatApe made a suggestion of using a thermal store for daily heat energy storage, pretty much along the lines of night store heaters but using a large water tank (water seems like a great choice as it is cheap and has a high heat capacity) but volumetrically suggested that using pressurisation to allow a larger temperature range would work rather than simply using a bigger tank.

    This does though bring up issues with safety as 500l of 170 degree water sounds dangerous. A heat exchange could be used for actual heating and DHW energy draw off.

    What such a system would not do though is integrate nicely with using heat pump to get more efficiency from the energy input. A COP seems like a good way to use electricity, not just because of the efficiency gain but also because it means you need to transmit less kwh than you end up using which is good for the grid and transmission losses. It seems like even with GSHP efficiency drops off markedly over 45 degrees. An ideal storage system would need to in some way square this circle.

    Going back to heat pumps. vertical loop GSHP seems to be the gold standard in terms of reliability and COP efficiency but at an uneconomic installation cost. This makes me think about another of GreatApe's suggestions - distributed neighbourhood heating. I lie in a semi. I suspect a shared GSHP heating system would cost not that much more than one just for us so if the incentives were put in place for this, each property could be billed for their usage and installation and maintenance to could be shared then this might be enough to make the economics work. Even better if the system could be shared over 4 or more properties. Problem might be getting everyone to make the leap at the same time as it is the sort of investment you would want to look at when your boiler needed replacing.

    However for new builds the economics might make sense from the get go especially if the current grants were tweaked to support a shared system.
    Cool heads and compromise
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 3rd Nov 19, 5:06 PM
    • 9,660 Posts
    • 14,547 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    However for new builds the economics might make sense from the get go especially if the current grants were tweaked to support a shared system.
    Originally posted by michaels
    Absolutely, and given that there will be lots of ground works going on, and easy access to the site, it would make sense. Also, combined systems are now easily managed thanks to heat meters (measure temp in and out, and flow rate to calculate kWh's consumed) so fairness can be maintained by billing rather than just hoped for.

    My BiL lives in Sweden, and the apartments he has rented, or owned, tend to have a single large boiler which serves all the flats/properties, improving efficiencies and costs.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • JKenH
    • By JKenH 18th Nov 19, 6:00 PM
    • 1,113 Posts
    • 3,237 Thanks
    JKenH
    The EDF tariff looks really good
    8p all weekend and 9pm to 7am weekdays and 16p at all other times
    Not sure what the standing charge is check that it's reasonable

    https://www.edfenergy.com/electric-cars/tariffs#footnote-ev-8p-per-kwh-off-peak-charging-single-rate
    Originally posted by GreatApe
    Having bought the EV I applied for this tariff but this was EDF’s response.

    We’ve checked the details of your electricity meter and I’m sorry to inform you that it’s not compatible with our two-rate GoElectric tariff. This is because we would need to install a smart meter to accurately measure your usage during the unique off peak hours of the tariff. However, there is currently no smart meter signal in your area, so it would not work correctly if we were to install it at your property.

    We know this is disappointing, so we’ve developed and recently launched a single-rate version of the tariff exclusively for customers in your situation, which will work with the meter you have installed. Although it does not offer an off-peak rate, the unit price that applies all day is designed to be extremely competitive, which provides a very similar overall bill price to that of the two-rate version (based on an assumed usage split of 60% off-peak & 40% peak). The prices are also fixed until January 2021.

    Fuel: Electricity
    Tariff Name: GoElectric Jan21 Single Rate
    Fixed Until: 31/01/2021
    Daily Standing Charge: 30.01p per day
    Unit Rate: 11.59p per kWh
    Exit Fee: £ 30


    I need to work through the figures but my initial impression is this won’t work so well for me but it might for others who don’t charge their car at home and have high daytime usage.
    Last edited by JKenH; 18-11-2019 at 6:02 PM.
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, Nissan Leaf (plus some ICEs )
    • EricMears
    • By EricMears 18th Nov 19, 7:25 PM
    • 2,575 Posts
    • 4,458 Thanks
    EricMears
    Although it does not offer an off-peak rate, the unit price that applies all day is designed to be extremely competitive, which provides a very similar overall bill price to that of the two-rate version (based on an assumed usage split of 60% off-peak & 40% peak).
    Originally posted by JKenH
    No signal for smart meters ? I thought they worked off a SIM card that could join any network within range and surely there can't be many places with no signal on any mobile network ! But even if they're telling the truth, why can't they offer a conventional E7 tariff ?

    I know electricity prices vary according to which part of the country you're in but I'd have thought N. Lincs would be pretty similar to NE Derbys. FWIW, my Bulb E7 rates are Day 15.38 Night 8.2 and 60% N + 40% D works out at 11.08 ppu. I suppose 11.59 ppu could (very) loosely be described as 'similar' to that (assuming that their prices are inclusive of vat as mine are) but the EDF DSC @30.01 ppd seems outrageous; Bulb's is only 20.44ppd.
    NE Derbyshire.
    4kWp S Facing 17.5deg slope (dormer roof).
    • MoneyMate
    • By MoneyMate 18th Nov 19, 7:54 PM
    • 3,022 Posts
    • 13,684 Thanks
    MoneyMate
    Our smart meter from E.ON works purely on Vodafone, would be interested if anyone else can back this up and what other suppliers use.
    Fitted Aug this year.
    There are more questions than answers
    WARNING ! May go silent for unfriendly replies
    Please excuse me Spell it MOST times
    UK Resident
    • JKenH
    • By JKenH 18th Nov 19, 9:22 PM
    • 1,113 Posts
    • 3,237 Thanks
    JKenH
    No signal for smart meters ? I thought they worked off a SIM card that could join any network within range and surely there can't be many places with no signal on any mobile network ! But even if they're telling the truth, why can't they offer a conventional E7 tariff ?
    Originally posted by EricMears
    We do have an intermittent signal on Vodafone but no other network. It can take hours to get a signal to send a text.


    I know electricity prices vary according to which part of the country you're in but I'd have thought N. Lincs would be pretty similar to NE Derbys. FWIW, my Bulb E7 rates are Day 15.38 Night 8.2 and 60% N + 40% D works out at 11.08 ppu. I suppose 11.59 ppu could (very) loosely be described as 'similar' to that (assuming that their prices are inclusive of vat as mine are) but the EDF DSC @30.01 ppd seems outrageous; Bulb's is only 20.44ppd.
    Originally posted by EricMears
    Iím currently with Bulb, 15.24 day and 8.65 night with same standing charge. EDF EV rates would for me, if available, be 16.94 day and 8.00 night inclusive of VAT. The attraction of the deal is that the night rate applies from 9pm to 7am and all day at weekends so 98 hours on night rates and 70 hours on day rates.
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, Nissan Leaf (plus some ICEs )
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 20th Nov 19, 9:30 PM
    • 4,960 Posts
    • 6,715 Thanks
    zeupater
    ?? Bot or Spammer building history Alert !!!! .....
    Last edited by zeupater; Yesterday at 9:34 PM.
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
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