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  • FIRST POST
    • trient
    • By trient 24th Aug 19, 11:27 PM
    • 35Posts
    • 12Thanks
    trient
    (Paging Barclays experts) Blacklisted for fraud, no recourse given
    • #1
    • 24th Aug 19, 11:27 PM
    (Paging Barclays experts) Blacklisted for fraud, no recourse given 24th Aug 19 at 11:27 PM
    (I've posted about my situation before but at that time I was on the wrong path, I hope it's ok if I open a new thread to start clean)

    Last month I tried to open a current account online with Barclays. I was told they needed to review my application. I went in branch. They opened the (premier) account just fine, but a few days later they closed it. They did not provide any reasons other than referring me to page 11 of the T&C's which gives a list of reasons including fraud/money laundering (this seems important, see below).

    While my account was still active I received a letter saying my online application had not been approved, "The main reason for this decision is our assessment of how you've managed credit commitments with other lenders and based on this information we're unable to provide the facility you have requested. We've made our assessment based on information we've received from a credit reference agency. In reaching this decision we've used a process called Credit Scoring. The main reason for this decision is our assessment of information received from a credit reference agency and based on this information we're unable to provide the facility you have requested."

    Background: I had been trying to get an account with them for quite some time (because of their ranking, premier rewards, and mortgage rates). So I may be on a hiding for nothing here, but I'm really trying to understand what they think they know about me - partly because I find it a nice detective challenge, but also to get myself covered in case there's some incorrect information sitting somewhere, that might hurt me even more in the future.

    My full credit reports from all three CRAs show no problems whatsoever. So I went and SARed Barclays, CIFAS and the two fraud prevention services - National Hunter and Synectics Solutions. CIFAS, NH and Synectics all came clean. Synectics had no applications from Barclays, while NH had all my previous Barclays applications, all marked clean, with no inconsistencies.

    Barclays' response however.. was mind-boggling. They sent me a huge file which among other thing had what they call "notepads" - essentially, internal notes posted on my customer profile. Here is my applications timeline along with the matching notepads - fascinating (yet terrifying) insights. I hope someone with Barclays experience can help "decode" my case.

    • 2017 May: applied in branch, rep got my details but told me the application had to be reviewed. I haven't heard back from him. A few weeks later I contacted him, he told me my application was rejected but he could not provide a reason.
      15/05/2017 - notepad code "risk", title "risk product", text "For bank information only. Please do not process any further applications for this Customer. There are no products available. Any queries please contact the Fraud Telephony 0345xxx", created business unit "Barclaycard Northampton" (I live in the South-East, and never applied for a credit card with them)
    • 2017 July: applied in another branch, was immediately told my application was rejected. I assumed this was because I did not have enough address/credit history in the UK (I'm an EU national).
      18/07/2017 - notepad text "Customer come to branch to set up an account but advised that is not possible as he does not qualify and do not fulfill the criteria"
    • 2018 October: applied online, got rejected. Went in branch, premier rep sent my details for manual review, told me later the application was rejected again.
      09/10/2018 - notepad code "risk", title "risk product", text "R170 policy decline, main applicant. Client started application on-line for convenience however it was declined with the R170. Wondering if client clicked on a yes and its suppose to be a no hence giving that code. Seen all the accounts he has opened since he came to work and live in UK: main account at the moment is with XXXXX - all run well with xxk balance, have Vanquis Bank - seen all 6 mos bank statements - all run well, XXX account - run well and Amex Preferred Gold Card ALL ACCOUNTS RUN WELL. Experion report seen. Client would like to transfer banking to Barclays as will be applying for a mortgage. He has worked in Finance Operations Consultancy for XXXX. Is a family man with a X year old girl. Salary XXk basic"
      10/10/2018 - notepad code "risk", text "Please ensure this application is resumed within Fullserve. GCR are unable to sanction this application due to the following: <<Please refer to decline decision code SR34 using the 'decode it' tool on KIT. If further information is required please contact Fraud Operations through Barclays Chat. They can be located by searching for 'Fraud Ops HD NonCard Helpdesk'>>. Please ensure this decision is delivered to your customer.", created business unit "RTB CUST REL 0"
    • 2019 July: see first two paragraphs. They incorrectly sent me a blue debit card instead of the (black) premier account one, so I phoned them up. They apologised and said they would order the correct one. At this point the account was working fine, but I suspect it was this request that tickled the fraud team once again, see below:
      18/07/2019 - notepad code "risk", title "risk product", text "Customer is new to bank, however would like a black premier card", created business unit "RTB CUST REL 0"
      19/07/2019 - notepad code "risk", text "Please ensure this application is resumed within Fullserve. GCR are unable to sanction this application due to the following: <<Please refer to decline decision code SR34 using the 'decode it' tool on KIT. If further information is required please contact Fraud Operations through Barclays Chat. They can be located by searching for 'Fraud Ops HD NonCard Helpdesk'>>. Please ensure this decision is delivered to your customer.", created business unit "Union Plaza" (this seems to be an office in Aberdeen!)
      22/07/2019 - notepad code "risk", title "security", text "Internal call, customer verified as above. Advised MOS to speak to CCCT about above notepads regarding card declining", created business unit "Barclaycard Northampton" (again!)
      22/07/2019 - notepad code "servicing", text "Card upgrade application declined as per above GCR note pad. Do not progress and do not attempt reapplication, appropriate teams have been contacted and further correspondence will be issued in due course", created business unit "RTB CUST REL 0"
      22/07/2019 - notepad code "risk", title "risk product", text "H2 NTC 1 Day. For bank information only. Frauds 3 case ref: XXXXX. Account blocks and a notice to close advice have been applied to this customer following an internal investigation by the AFDT see branch KIT. Please do not remove cautions or advise customer that cautions have been applied. The customer should be advised to refer to the account product terms and conditions which enable this action without preadvice to the customer. If a complaint originates from our cautions log at level 1 and escalate to level 2 requesting that this is immediately sent to UK Banking Risk Advances Fraud Falcons. In the event of difficulties with this customer please phone Non Plastic Telephony 0345 XXX option 2. FP H2. GFMNTC1 process initiated.", created business unit "Barclaycard Northampton"
      23/07/2019 - notepad code "consumer finance", text "H2 NTC. For bank information only. NTC issued 23072019, NTC expires 23072019, immediate closure decision made by bank following an internal investigation by the AFDT see branch SID. The customer should be advised to refer to the account product terms and conditions which enables this action without preadvice to the customer. If a complaint originates from our cautions log at level 1 and escalate to level 2 requesting that this is immediately sent to UKB Risk Adv.Frfalcons. Please fax written complaints to CW XXXX XXXX. In the event of difficulties with this customer please phone the Falcons 0333 XXX option 2.", created business unit "C F (U)"

    So Barclay's statement about the credit reference agencies/scoring is bo**ocks. For some reason they seem to think (internally) that I've committed some serious fraud (since 2017 or earlier), and on that basis they keep rejecting me. But since they're not transparent (read: lying) about the reason, they're not giving me a chance to defend (I have never committed any fraud in any country, so whatever they think they know is wrong).

    Following the closure last month I filed a complaint. Their answer was to pay me £150 for the inconvenience (paying the fraudster, go figure) but the rep also told me on the phone she saw no reason why I couldn't apply again in 6-12 months. Given what I'm seeing in the notepads I'm sure at this point for all intents and purposes I'm blacklisted - but what can I do about it? How can I find out more about why they think I've committed fraud, and clarify the situation? Should I try to call the numbers mentioned in the notepads and discuss with the Falcons? Go to the FOS?

    Thank you for your time reading so far, would appreciate any insights!
Page 1
    • Gary_Dexter
    • By Gary_Dexter 24th Aug 19, 11:32 PM
    • 6,867 Posts
    • 4,573 Thanks
    Gary_Dexter
    • #2
    • 24th Aug 19, 11:32 PM
    • #2
    • 24th Aug 19, 11:32 PM
    They can choose eho they do and don’t want to make custom with.

    You, for whatever reason, don’t fit their criteria.

    FOS won’t make them change their minds.
    • xlnc99
    • By xlnc99 25th Aug 19, 12:42 AM
    • 506 Posts
    • 68 Thanks
    xlnc99
    • #3
    • 25th Aug 19, 12:42 AM
    • #3
    • 25th Aug 19, 12:42 AM
    IT looks like internal. For whatever reason they think you did something dodgy. I would just ignore them and apply elsewhere cause it doesnt look like they reported it to anyone i.e CIFAS so its just internal.

    Plenty more banks around, you should open with ease.

    If you did do something dodgy then best to leave it alone because if you keep pestering them they may just add the note to CIFAS. IF you are 100 convinced you didnt then bombard them with emails to get to the bottom of this. Start by emailing the CEO and executive office.
    • colsten
    • By colsten 25th Aug 19, 9:25 AM
    • 11,167 Posts
    • 10,439 Thanks
    colsten
    • #4
    • 25th Aug 19, 9:25 AM
    • #4
    • 25th Aug 19, 9:25 AM
    I agree with xlnc99. Take your business elsewhere - the Barclays products aren't so wonderful and unique, anyway.

    Pure speculation on my part: They might have turned you down because of your occupation ("He has worked in Finance Operations Consultancy for XXXX"), or because of who you work for. Although a bank don't really need any reason for not wanting you as a customer. It would be a real issue if you couldn't get any account and/or mortgage anywhere else, but it appears that the only bank who don't want you are Barclays.
    • Flobberchops
    • By Flobberchops 25th Aug 19, 11:46 PM
    • 1,211 Posts
    • 1,118 Thanks
    Flobberchops
    • #5
    • 25th Aug 19, 11:46 PM
    • #5
    • 25th Aug 19, 11:46 PM
    I would advise against trying to investigate too deeply looking for rhyme or reason as it's unlikely to be a fruitful use of your time. When dealing with bureaucratic monoliths (like a multi-departmental bank, for example) there may arise inconsistencies; remember that the exact rationale behind internal investigations is not divulged even to other bank staff outside of the decision-making department. The frontline staff then have to work with incomplete information and may do seemingly contradictory things like offer financial compensation or give confused information about eligibility to apply in future.

    I would warn against characterising this as "lying" or a deliberate, malicious attempt to deceive. Remember Hanlon's Razor: never attribute to malice that which could be as easily chalked up to error.

    If your credit files are clean, then it's possible Barclays made a mistake. Either raise a complaint with them (although remember they have no obligation to accept you as a customer, or give any reason for rejecting you) or shrug and choose a different bank.
    I work for a UK bank, but any comments made on this forum are solely my personal opinion. Caveat Emptor!
    • trient
    • By trient 26th Aug 19, 3:25 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    trient
    • #6
    • 26th Aug 19, 3:25 PM
    • #6
    • 26th Aug 19, 3:25 PM
    If you did do something dodgy then best to leave it alone because if you keep pestering them they may just add the note to CIFAS. IF you are 100 convinced you didnt then bombard them with emails to get to the bottom of this. Start by emailing the CEO and executive office.
    Originally posted by xlnc99
    Nope - positively, definitely didn't do anything dodgy. That's the whole point - I want my name cleared even if it's only for Barclays internal investigation. But since they're upholding a decision initially made in 2017 they must be pretty certain about it, so I'd like first to understand what is this fraud they think I committed. The reason why I posted all those notepads is because they transpire some seriously dodgy stuff - they're rife with warnings to the other teams about how to deal with the "difficult customer". Makes me feel like I'm on the most wanted list.

    Pure speculation on my part: They might have turned you down because of your occupation ("He has worked in Finance Operations Consultancy for XXXX"), or because of who you work for.
    Originally posted by colsten
    I was a bit overzealous redacting that bit. I actually worked for many years for some very high-profile charity organisations - if anything that should have worked for me not against me. I currently work for a reputable large IT company (as a matter of fact, Barclays are one of my clients there and I've done some pretty good stuff for them - feels queasy how they're returning the favour).

    It would be a real issue if you couldn't get any account and/or mortgage anywhere else, but it appears that the only bank who don't want you are Barclays.
    Originally posted by colsten
    One other thing I noticed in the SAR file is that they had the full details (bank, sort code, product) of 2 of my other bank accounts - one of them opened earlier this year (not part of the full file I gave them in 2018 to demonstrate how well I was running my accounts). Are account details not private information? Are banks allowed to share these? If they do, it could be just a matter of time until Barclays might damage my profile with other banks (without using CIFAS).
    • trient
    • By trient 26th Aug 19, 3:50 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    trient
    • #7
    • 26th Aug 19, 3:50 PM
    • #7
    • 26th Aug 19, 3:50 PM
    I would advise against trying to investigate too deeply looking for rhyme or reason as it's unlikely to be a fruitful use of your time. When dealing with bureaucratic monoliths (like a multi-departmental bank, for example) there may arise inconsistencies; remember that the exact rationale behind internal investigations is not divulged even to other bank staff outside of the decision-making department. The frontline staff then have to work with incomplete information and may do seemingly contradictory things like offer financial compensation or give confused information about eligibility to apply in future.
    Originally posted by Flobberchops
    Fair enough, that's why I'm hoping that someone here can shed some light on what that codes might mean and how I could have a straight, unmediated dialogue with their advanced birds of prey department.

    I would warn against characterising this as "lying" or a deliberate, malicious attempt to deceive. Remember Hanlon's Razor: never attribute to malice that which could be as easily chalked up to error.
    Originally posted by Flobberchops
    Hanlon's razor was not exactly about error, but yes, I need to amend my statement - I'm not saying they are lying per se, just circulating incorrect/incomplete information. I am sympathetic with the lack of communication between the relevant departments, but in the end they should be more receptive to customers especially if they insist they've done nothing wrong.
    • colsten
    • By colsten 26th Aug 19, 3:51 PM
    • 11,167 Posts
    • 10,439 Thanks
    colsten
    • #8
    • 26th Aug 19, 3:51 PM
    • #8
    • 26th Aug 19, 3:51 PM
    One other thing I noticed in the SAR file is that they had the full details (bank, sort code, product) of 2 of my other bank accounts - one of them opened earlier this year (not part of the full file I gave them in 2018 to demonstrate how well I was running my accounts). Are account details not private information? Are banks allowed to share these? If they do, it could be just a matter of time until Barclays might damage my profile with other banks (without using CIFAS).
    Originally posted by trient
    It's information held on your credit files, along with your overdraft limits and any negative balances. Sort codes and account numbers have been printed on cheques for several decades..............
    • trient
    • By trient 26th Aug 19, 3:55 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    trient
    • #9
    • 26th Aug 19, 3:55 PM
    • #9
    • 26th Aug 19, 3:55 PM
    It's information held on your credit files, along with your overdraft limits and any negative balances. Sort codes and account numbers have been printed on cheques for several decades..............
    Originally posted by colsten
    As far as I can tell credit files only have bank names, not sort codes and account numbers. I obviously understand that account details need to circulate as part of doing banking, but when you never transacted with a bank before and they already hold that information about you in their customer profile, isn't that a bit odd?
    • colsten
    • By colsten 26th Aug 19, 4:03 PM
    • 11,167 Posts
    • 10,439 Thanks
    colsten
    As far as I can tell credit files only have bank names, not sort codes and account numbers. I obviously understand that account details need to circulate as part of doing banking, but when you never transacted with a bank before and they already hold that information about you in their customer profile, isn't that a bit odd?
    Originally posted by trient
    You're wrong. The sort codes and account numbers are held on your credit files. It's not odd at all that a bank know about your credit file information because you have given them explicit permission, during the application process, that they can read & store the details they find about you on your credit files.
    • Heng Leng
    • By Heng Leng 26th Aug 19, 4:14 PM
    • 4,893 Posts
    • 1,608 Thanks
    Heng Leng
    They don't want you as a customer as is their right as a business -
    they gave you the £150 to get rid of you - I suggest you don't attempt to read more into it.

    Since they haven't placed something like an external fraud marker - there is nothing you can do and attempting to challenge their internal processes isn't likely to be fruitful.
    • trient
    • By trient 26th Aug 19, 4:38 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    trient
    Ok, could I kindly ask everyone a favour. The bit about the bank's right to choose their customers is pretty clear. The bit where there's nothing I can do may also be correct. But that's not the information I'm looking for (although I do appreciate everyone that took their time to post such comments).

    I'm actually looking for help relevant to my actual case, that's why I transcribed so much detail. So rather than giving me high level advice, with all due respect, could you please only post here if you can help me in some way.

    A long while back users like BarclaysManager/Extant and So Sad Angel were giving actual insights from their place of work. They haven't been active for many years but I'm hoping there are some (other) people familiar with Barclays procedures that can chip in - hence the title.

    Thank you.
    • Thrugelmir
    • By Thrugelmir 26th Aug 19, 5:27 PM
    • 65,397 Posts
    • 57,544 Thanks
    Thrugelmir
    I'm actually looking for help relevant to my actual case,
    Originally posted by trient
    You need to understand that business works at a macro level. They'll operate using board level set criteria . If you do not pass this then the bank will decline your custom. That's the reality.

    It's nothing personal and doesn't impact you personally in anyway. Digging around at the micro level will get you absolutely nowhere.

    If you ever want a relationship with Barclays in the future. Best to let go of the bone. The more irratating customers become the greater the likelihood that the blacklisting will become indefinate.
    ““there really is no such thing as ‘the future’, singular. There are only multiple, unforeseeable futures, which will never lose their capacity to take us by surprise.””
    ― Niall Ferguson
    • Flobberchops
    • By Flobberchops 26th Aug 19, 6:01 PM
    • 1,211 Posts
    • 1,118 Thanks
    Flobberchops
    Without wanting to be glib or unhelpful; the "high level" advice you received so far has been correct, as is the general consensus that you should accept Barclays' decision - as unfair as you feel it is - and move on.

    Given what I'm seeing in the notepads I'm sure at this point for all intents and purposes I'm blacklisted - but what can I do about it?
    Originally posted by trient
    Nothing. If the bank required proof of income or wanted to ask you questions they would have done so. The fact that they completed their internal review and came to a decision reflects the finality of that decision. Even without a CIFAS marker you will probably be barred from banking with Barclays for the time they are required to retain customer records, i.e. 6 years minimum.

    How can I find out more about why they think I've committed fraud, and clarify the situation?
    Originally posted by trient
    You can't, I'm afraid. This may constitute tipping-off or else compromise Barclays internal decision making process.

    Should I try to call the numbers mentioned in the notepads and discuss with the Falcons?
    Originally posted by trient
    Those are numbers for internal use only. You could call them, somebody would pick up, but being unable to pass internal security they quickly would end the conversation.

    Go to the FOS?
    Originally posted by trient
    You can try. As your dealings with Barclays don't seem to have left any adverse credit history I don't feel you could claim to have been impacted in any way. I suppose you could argue the SAR did not meet requirements?

    Again, I sympathise, but I don't see this being a good use of your time. [edit] I just read through your previous thread - what did Ashok Vaswani say when you contacted him last month?
    Last edited by Flobberchops; 26-08-2019 at 6:21 PM.
    I work for a UK bank, but any comments made on this forum are solely my personal opinion. Caveat Emptor!
    • Gary_Dexter
    • By Gary_Dexter 26th Aug 19, 6:54 PM
    • 6,867 Posts
    • 4,573 Thanks
    Gary_Dexter
    What are you actually hoping to achieve out of all of this?

    They don’t want you as a customer.

    Move on to someone who does.
    • colsten
    • By colsten 26th Aug 19, 7:20 PM
    • 11,167 Posts
    • 10,439 Thanks
    colsten

    I'm actually looking for help relevant to my actual case, that's why I transcribed so much detail. So rather than giving me high level advice, with all due respect, could you please only post here if you can help me in some way.
    Originally posted by trient
    Whilst you may not like to responses you have got, people have gone to the trouble to read your posts and to respond to them. This is an open forum where anyone can post whether you like what they say or whether you don't.
    • trient
    • By trient 6th Sep 19, 7:42 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    trient
    Without wanting to be glib or unhelpful; the "high level" advice you received so far has been correct, as is the general consensus that you should accept Barclays' decision - as unfair as you feel it is - and move on.
    Originally posted by Flobberchops
    What are you actually hoping to achieve out of all of this?
    Originally posted by Gary_Dexter
    I don't really like to take no for an answer. The same reason why I have a can-do attitude with my customers, and it's been a pretty good strategy for 20+ years so far. So I think it's reasonable to try to exhaust all avenues even if only just to make sure it wasn't because of miscommunication/misunderstanding.

    Whilst you may not like to responses you have got, people have gone to the trouble to read your posts and to respond to them. This is an open forum where anyone can post whether you like what they say or whether you don't.
    Originally posted by colsten
    I'm sorry if I might have come across the wrong way, my note was never meant to be rude or patronising - just indicating the type of advice I was looking for.

    I just read through your previous thread - what did Ashok Vaswani say when you contacted him last month?
    Originally posted by Flobberchops
    I hadn't contacted him at that point as I was waiting for my SAR results to come back. I did write him now, and I also wrote a number of other VPs in the area of fraud and risk management. I was pleasantly surprised to hear back from most of them, and they were most helpful in getting executive customer support assistance with my inquiry.

    I am happy to report that a few days later they contacted me to let me know the review process reverted the original decision, and while they were not able to tell me what it is that they thought there could have been wrong, they removed the marker on my profile and are now expecting me in branch to open up an account.

    So in the end I would say it was worth it. Many thanks for everyone that chipped in with comments/suggestions etc. If anyone needs to follow a similar process in the future I'll be happy to assist.
    • TiberUK
    • By TiberUK 6th Sep 19, 8:02 PM
    • 48 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    TiberUK
    I don't understand why you are so hell bent on being a Barclays customer
    • Gary_Dexter
    • By Gary_Dexter 6th Sep 19, 8:49 PM
    • 6,867 Posts
    • 4,573 Thanks
    Gary_Dexter
    I don’t get why the persistence with them - there’s so many better banks out there.
    • wizzywig27
    • By wizzywig27 7th Sep 19, 7:27 PM
    • 1,319 Posts
    • 837 Thanks
    wizzywig27
    When they refer to Barclaycard Northampton it’s because their offices in Northampton are addresses as Barclaycard but they have numerous Barclays departments operating from there, including certain fraud departments
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