On-grid domestic battery storage
Comments
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Mart, thanks for the heads up on the PETE project.
Got in touch with them to understand the numbers..£2899 for lithium ion 4KWh (warranty 10 yrs) or £1899 (warranty 5 yrs) for lithium ion 4KWh (second life). The prices are all inclusive.
From the forum I understand that this may suffice for powering the heartbeat of the house, during night time.
Does this look to be good value?
Hiya, I'm in two minds, or heart and head.
Head says that's a lot, and you will probably only breakeven.
Heart says that I want to play with a battery.
When you say inclusive, does that mean everything, including install?
Do some number crunching and see how much potential you have over a year for changing export into reduced import, and see how much that will save. My thought would be that the 5yr batt may be good for 10yrs ..... what do you think?
I'm also seriously thinking of switching to Solarplicity at the moment for a no standing charge account which works out cheaper for me, with no battery plan today, so perhaps for you, it might save a bit more depending on what tariff you are on. [Note, beware the leccy cost estimate as it deducts LED savings from whatever you enter, so beef up your figure by 12%.]
Edit - also, are you happy to just breakeven, whilst enjoying the experience, and perhaps gaining the knowledge/experience for a 'better' battery in 10yrs?Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)
For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.0 -
Martyn1981 wrote: »I'm also seriously thinking of switching to Solarplicity at the moment for a no standing charge account which works out cheaper for me, with no battery plan today, so perhaps for you, it might save a bit more depending on what tariff you are on. [Note, beware the leccy cost estimate as it deducts LED savings from whatever you enter, so beef up your figure by 12%.]
Hi Mart,
If you are thinking of switching to Solarplicity take a look at their reviews on the Energy Board.0 -
ASavvyBuyer wrote: »Hi Mart,
If you are thinking of switching to Solarplicity take a look at their reviews on the Energy Board.
That's why I'm still 'only' thinking about it!
Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)
For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.0 -
...It wouldn't be so bad if modern technology was bringing the price of batteries down but it isn't at the moment...
It has, and fast. Batteries were on a 14% reduction per year curve when used for laptops and phones but since motor manufacturers have started to put money in it has ramped up (ramped down ?) to a 20% reduction curve. The power electronics will be on a similar curve, but the installation isn't likely to come down much.
As we see variable time-of-day tariffs being introduced with series 2 smart meters, then the economics will become more attractive. We are also likely to see the utilities offering them cheap (or for free) if they can utilise the stored power.4kWp, Panels: 16 Hyundai HIS250MG, Inverter: SMA Sunny Boy 4000TLLocation: Bedford, Roof: South East facing, 20 degree pitch20kWh Pylontech US5000 batteries, Lux AC inverter,Skoda Enyaq iV80, TADO Central Heating control0 -
Martyn,
I would do yourself a favour and give batteries a miss. It will cost you money in the long run. I'm convinced no battery is going to last 10 years unless you take only less than say 25% out of it per day. And in the uk you cant guarantee that the sun willl shine the next day to charge it up again. Unless the government give decent incentives to go solar give it a miss. Batteries are going to cost you and grid tie inverters are costly to change when they break down., I dont think most inverters are guarenteed past 5 years.
I think if the government were serious about global warming they would give decent incentives to solar hot water systems and grid ties systems but instead they are putting in billions to the world global warming scam where the money that could be used for incentives to households in the UK will be going into the hands of big companies and squandered in directors take offs and share holder dividends. :beer:0 -
Martyn,
I would do yourself a favour and give batteries a miss. It will cost you money in the long run. I'm convinced no battery is going to last 10 years unless you take only less than say 25% out of it per day. And in the uk you cant guarentee that the sun willl shine the next day to charge it up again. Unless the government give decent incentives to go solar give it a miss. Batteries are going to cost you and grid tie inverters are costly to change when they break down., I dont think most inverters are guarenteed past 5 years.
I think if the government were serious about global warming they would give decent incentives to solar hot water systems and grid ties systems but instead they are putting in billions to the world global warming scam where the money that could be used for incentives to households in the UK will be going into the hands of big companies and squandered in directors take offs and share holder dividends. :beer:
Hiya, many of the Li-ion batts are now coming with 10yr warranties. An an on roof option is offering 20yrs. Also worth considering the life cycles with many now stating 6,000+ even 8,000+, and even then that's not when the batt is dead, but when it's fallen to around 70% capacity, which itself is fine if the batt is oversized on day one.
The LA (lead acid) batts are best not discharged more than 50% or DoD (depth of discharge), and will last longer at 25% DoD, but the li-ion are rated to about 80% DoD.
So the Tesla Powerwall II at half the price, or twice the warranted life expectancy works out at around 5p/kWh of use, which is worth it, for me, and I expect some combination of both factors in the next few years. Also deals are starting to appear where battery energy is being bought off householders at peak periods increasing the value of that stored PV gen.
Inverter warranties of 10-12yrs can be found, and extending warranties to 20yrs is pretty cheap, I think my Solaredge HD inverter can be extended to 20yrs for about £100, or 25yrs for about £200, but the installers upped it to 20yrs for me.
You are right that we can't guarantee the sun in the UK the next day, which is kinda where the argument for a larger batt fits in, rather than a minimal size batt, but again, need to wait for prices to fall, and they are, slowly.Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)
For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.0 -
instead they are putting in billions to the world global warming scam
Do you not believe in Human induced climate change?5.18 kWp PV systems (3.68 E/W & 1.5 E).
Solar iBoost+ to two immersion heaters on 300L thermal store.
Vegan household with 100% composted food waste
Mini orchard planted and vegetable allotment created.0 -
No, is the answer, at least not wholly. If it were to be true then the way countries are going about reducing carbon emissions is rather more to make profits than the reduction of emissions. For example, the billions the uk has signed up to the 'global warming' scheme could pay for subsidized water heating and solar electric in most houses in the UK. If the gov. were to do this the Utilities would lose billions in profit ., it's not going to happen.pile-o-stone wrote: »Do you not believe in Human induced climate change?
In Spain, the Utility !!!!!s have persuaded the government to make owners of solar electric pay the gov. a charge for the priviledge, so not many householders in Spain are going this route.0 -
Hi Martyn,
Thanks for the technology update, things are certainly improving and one just has to see how many miles that electric bikes are doing now. We are getting there apart from the costs of purchasing involved.
In the UK I would argue that until the gov, bring back realistic subsidies then solar electric systems wont be feasable until prices come down by some 50%. I think the gov/utilities dont want to lose their easy profits and so have put the brakes on everyone going solar even at the expense of the global warming, profits must come first.
I think solar hot water is very viable for most people now but not electric.
I understand your desire to be green as I was the same and it is a fascinating subject. But I think some governments, uk included, are having a trade-off between being green and their loss of income from having too many householders producing cheaper electricity from solar. And, of course our weather puts us at a big disadvantage too.
If I was young enough to get the benefits from long payback times, I would consider solar hot water first, but then a combi boiler is cheap too, then a grid-tie system second. I would give battery systems a miss until/if there are real incentives to take the risk.
If a bank of panels plus a 10kw battery system was say £10000, which is probably too cheap a price, then how many years would it take to break even?
ps I would take the guarantee and performance figures with a pinch of salt as these will be inflated best case figures, riddled with small print clauses, and in reality it doesnt work like that. If you are flush with money or want to get into the industry then it may a reason to buy a system to see the pitfalls and benefits in action.0 -
Hi... If I was young enough to get the benefits from long payback times, I would consider solar hot water first, but then a combi boiler is cheap too, then a grid-tie system second. I would give battery systems a miss until/if there are real incentives to take the risk ...
It's almost certainly the case that (even with the much reduced FiT rates) installing solar PV would provide the homeowner with more energy flexibility and a better ROI than solar thermal would, even if accessing the RHI scheme.
There's a recent take on Solar PV vs Thermal on this link ... Solar PV & Thermal: One or both ? .. which seems to conclude that PV is now the better solution if space permits.
HTH
Z"We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
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