BT Pension Scheme Review: Help please.

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  • jennyjj
    jennyjj Posts: 346 Forumite
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    Sorry about the shouty subject, This thread is for deferred members of BT's Final Salary scheme (BTPS)

    If you are a deferred member of the BTPS, then there maybe some massive changes afoot that could make a massive difference to your pension and your lump sum.

    We all know that there is an actuarial reduction if we take the pension early and for pre-2009 that amounts to about 5% for each year taken before 60 with an additional reduction for post-2009 service for each year taken before 65. For those of us with most of our service before 2009, the general consensus is to ignore the reduction on the post 2009 service ant to draw the pension at 60, or just a few years before. That, indeed is my intention as I didn't think 5% for each year was a big deal, what with getting extra years in payment.

    BUT, here's the news, and so far it is NOT absolutely confirmed! The reduction rates, have apparently been revised for June 1st onwards to something like 3% for each year taken early. This info is being widely distributed in outbound calls from Wealth At Work, BT's favoured advisor, and an organisation with in depth knowledge.

    There's some chatter about this on facebook (link below). Apparently some BT deferred members have contacted the Chesterfield BT Pensions team and received confirmation that the change is coming effective June 1, but I've yet to see this in writing. I personally phoned the BT Pensions helpline and went to an offshore team, where I requested my 'option pack' and I requested a list of actuarial reduction rates. I told the advisor that I had heard that the AR rates were due to change, and could she check for me. She checked and said her manager had not had any notification of forthcoming changes. She sent me the reduction rate table and it shows the same old 5% (ish) reduction per year for pre-09 service. I'm still awaiting my quote.

    I'm quite concerned that my quote might well get prepared based on the old table and if I crystalise it (1 year before 60) that I will be getting 2% less tax free lump sum and 2% less pension till the day I die!

    All that assumes that the story emerging about the 3% rates are correct, which would be a remarkably generous improvement by the trustees at a time when they are strapped for cash.

    I actually suspect that there is another change paired with the reduced actuarial reduction rates that will counter the potential benefit : Something like Yes, it's 3% but you can only take it early if your leg drops off ( or, more seriously, if you are still in service and leave in July )

    Here's the link to the chatter on facebook. It's a group which you may have to join.
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/175048092553798/permalink/1852415374817053/?comment_id=1861865850538672&notif_id=1527755752605485&notif_t=group_comment_follow

    Here's what Wealth at Work wrote to one member of the scheme...

    "According to the member guides sent out by BT “The new improved factors are expected to be in place by 1 June 2018 (or on completion of the BTPS actuarial valuation, if later)” And therefore are expected imminently. We do not know exactly what these factors will be as yet however BT have given a rough guide of expected reduction factors of 3%p.a. for Section B members and 3.5%p.a.for Section C members."

    As the story unfolds, if anyone can add to this thread, please do so.
  • jennyjj
    jennyjj Posts: 346 Forumite
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    OK. Slightly more info...

    Buried in http://www.cwusec.org.uk/docs/Pensions/219_BT__BTPS_Members_13.04.18_P8.pdf

    on page 4 there is an illustration of the application of new improved actuarial reduction rates. It sure looks like 3% and there's mention of BT trying to work towards separating the crystalisation dates for pre and post 2009 service. That was always an irritation to me.

    But, the doc does say in the title that it is for 'Team Members' which might imply it will be different for members who are currently defered. Maybe they are going to stitch up currently deferred members as a cost of sweetening the deal for active members.

    Sorry to be cynical, but when BT mentions improvements, my paranoia gland kicks in
  • robin61
    robin61 Posts: 677 Forumite
    edited 31 May 2018 at 2:45PM
    jennyjj wrote: »
    OK. Slightly more info...

    Buried in http://www.cwusec.org.uk/docs/Pensions/219_BT__BTPS_Members_13.04.18_P8.pdf

    on page 4 there is an illustration of the application of new improved actuarial reduction rates. It sure looks like 3% and there's mention of BT trying to work towards separating the crystalisation dates for pre and post 2009 service. That was always an irritation to me.

    But, the doc does say in the title that it is for 'Team Members' which might imply it will be different for members who are currently defered. Maybe they are going to stitch up currently deferred members as a cost of sweetening the deal for active members.

    Sorry to be cynical, but when BT mentions improvements, my paranoia gland kicks in

    Im sure I remember reading that these more attractive reduction factors will apply to people still employed in June 2018. So yes I don't think current deferred members will benefit. I noticed something from Connect to say BT had confirmed these will apply until at least June 2019. Hopefully they will continue but maybe something to watch out for in case they subsequently change for the worse.

    Yep the help desk told me they were expecting the reduction to be 3% for scheme B and 3.5% for scheme C. As you say that's a significant improvement and it might just be good enough to persuade me to take the pension early instead of deferring to age 60. It would be nice to see it all in writing though !

    They've said splitting the pre and post 2009 benefits won't be possible until the systems to do it are in place in 2019.
  • Brynsam
    Brynsam Posts: 3,643 Forumite
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    The guide referred to above clearly indicates it is being sent to active members. Sounds like this is a concession being made to those who are directly affected by the scheme's closure to future build up of benefits.
  • tigerspill
    tigerspill Posts: 774 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post
    There are two things here and I am not sure how they are actually related.
    1. The actuarial reductions for btps were due for reassessment in 2018 regardless of the changes.
    2. Under the new scheme, it looks like one of the sweetness is the reduction from 5 to 3ish%

    I have asked regularly and am being told that none of this is sorted out yet.
    Not everything is being sorted out at the switchover cate of 1st July.

    Interestingly, by my calculations the switch from 5 to 3% makes it a no brainer for me to take the BTPS at 55. The cross over is at age 90 for me; It is 74 with it being 5%. This was a fag packet calculation ignoring all other income.

    When I get the details (I am an active member) I will post on here. I believe they are due around 7th June.
  • jennyjj
    jennyjj Posts: 346 Forumite
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    Indeed, if the AR rate drops to 3% pa, then it will be a no-brainer for lots of existing employees to jump ship and take it, massively depleting the funds available: Of benefit to the company that might save a few quid on redundancy payments, But the cut over date of about 90 compared to mid 70s is not actuarily neutral. The company must anticipate some benefit for itself, or else they have some dirty claw back trick in the pipeline... or they are idiots. I rule nothing out.
    Watching this space closely, indeed
  • badmemory
    badmemory Posts: 7,788 Forumite
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    Don't they want to make large redundancies? If so, this would make a great deal of sense. The costs of redundancy, plus the time & costs of "selecting" who to make redundant & the aggro involved for all concerned, compared to future costs of several saying yes we'll go now!
  • robin61
    robin61 Posts: 677 Forumite
    edited 1 June 2018 at 7:10PM
    jennyjj wrote: »
    Indeed, if the AR rate drops to 3% pa, then it will be a no-brainer for lots of existing employees to jump ship and take it, massively depleting the funds available: Of benefit to the company that might save a few quid on redundancy payments, But the cut over date of about 90 compared to mid 70s is not actuarily neutral. The company must anticipate some benefit for itself, or else they have some dirty claw back trick in the pipeline... or they are idiots. I rule nothing out.
    Watching this space closely, indeed

    There are going to be some people who are going to come out of these changes quite well. As you say those new accurarial reduction rates do make taking the pension early far more attractive and I do think I've changed my plan as a result of this. It's a decision I've changed my way of thinking on a couple of times but I reckon this swings it in favour of taking the pension early.

    I'm sitting tight for a bit to see what happens regarding the 13000 mainly managerial job reductions they announced recently. Hopefully there will be some early leaver packages up for grabs. That plus the more attractive reduction factors would do me nicely. If in the meantime the job gets unbearable it's nice to know that there is all being well an attractive early retirement option there now even without a package.
    In the meantime I'll be sticking as much as I can manage into the BTRSS as I already have enough in my AVC.
    Interesting times at BT if you are close to reaching the finish line.
  • tigerspill
    tigerspill Posts: 774 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post
    jennyjj wrote: »
    Indeed, if the AR rate drops to 3% pa, then it will be a no-brainer for lots of existing employees to jump ship and take it, massively depleting the funds available: Of benefit to the company that might save a few quid on redundancy payments, But the cut over date of about 90 compared to mid 70s is not actuarily neutral. The company must anticipate some benefit for itself, or else they have some dirty claw back trick in the pipeline... or they are idiots. I rule nothing out.
    Watching this space closely, indeed

    I think it was part of the negotiation to close the BTPS. SO I guess that gain a lot that way. One of the big reasons for closing was not just cost, but predictability.
  • tigerspill
    tigerspill Posts: 774 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post
    robin61 wrote: »
    There are going to be some people who are going to come out of these changes quite well. As you say those new accurarial reduction rates do make taking the pension early far more attractive and I do think I've changed my plan as a result of this. It's a decision I've changed my way of thinking on a couple of times but I reckon this swings it in favour of taking the pension early.

    I'm sitting tight for a bit to see what happens regarding the 13000 mainly managerial job reductions they announced recently. Hopefully there will be some early leaver packages up for grabs. That plus the more attractive reduction factors would do me nicely. If in the meantime the job gets unbearable it's nice to know that there is all being well an attractive early retirement option there now even without a package.
    In the meantime I'll be sticking as much as I can manage into the BTRSS as I already have enough in my AVC.
    Interesting times at BT if you are close to reaching the finish line.

    There have been new redundancy terms detailed (as opposed to a voluntary leaver scheme which have run many times). These seem very good, but they need to enter formal redundancy notice to offer this. However, I wonder will that offer a much enhanced leavers scheme similar to the new EVR scheme benefits to try and lose people on the same deal but without the hassle of redundancy.
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