IVA? Be very wary!
Comments
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Richard_Carver wrote: »I know that many here consider the situation my own fault and feel that I simply have to accept it as a consequence of my circumstances. I accept their opinion although I personally think that the Student Finance system could be fairer. I do wince at paying taxes that finance the university courses of other people’s children, whilst my own children do not qualify for the same degree of funding… but that is just human nature. It is akin to growing and cooking food that you yourself cannot afford to eat.
There are certainly pros and cons in using a system of means testing, and I would imagine that other models may throw up different challenges. I can fully appreciate that you want to help your daughter make the very best start in life. I know this is a bit of a side step but universities and colleges do have extra funds that students can apply to for extra support and funding - I know it's not ideal but I just wanted to point out that there are a few safety nets. These can often be in the form of grants or bursaries - and as such they may not need to be paid back. One potential hurdle is that there are priority grounds that are supposed to have some of the these funds weighted towards them. One particular criteria is, yes you've guessed it, someone from a low income family.
The student finance system is very different now to what it was like when I was your daughter's age, it's complicated, bureaucratic and often confusing.
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milliemonster wrote: »It's not about fault, blame or ruining your life, you have to turn this around! At the moment you are acting like a victim, life dealt you a blow and you're dealing with it by means of an iva, it doesn't mean you have failed or ruined your life, good god it's money at the end of the day, things will improve over time.
For the time being though you have to deal with the cards you have been dealt, the student loan system is what it is, stop behaving like your daughters life is now going to be ruined aswell as yours, that's not giving her a good impression at all, be a supportive parent, you can't continue to provide for your now adult daughter unfortunately, that is just the way it is and no amount of procrastination will change that, so you have to now look at ways you can support your daughter that don't directly involve you financially supporting her.
Okay, I sense the irritation and hostility.
Yes, to the whole of your sermon.
However, 'the particular system' I am referring is faulty. There are glitches. Extrapolate the 'just man up, ignore that and deal with it' mantra and it means there is never any reform or evolution of 'systems'. We'd be expected to just live with faulty systems and not raise awareness to the issues involved. (Which I thought was part of the purpose of this site).
I've lived a good deal of my adult life serving in the Army and thank you, I have noticed during various postings that if you have food in your belly a roof over your head and clean water to drink then you are well off. If you have those things you have no real reason to complain.
Based upon your judgement of me, half the contributors to the debt issues/problems areas this site should simply shut up and man up.
In fact, as you say, 'good god it's money at the end of the day, things will improve over time. For the time being though you have to deal with the cards you have been dealt,'
Fine, but based upon that sentiment, why does the debt problem areas of this site exist? It has no right or purpose because the sentiment of that directive covers most issues.
However, this is me:
I am within in a IVA process. It is largely my own fault and I accept that. Whilst not being a natural businessman I attempted to start a business just prior to a recession and I used a good deal of personal finance and a 100% re-mortgage to fund that business (Hindsight=big mistake). At that time I suffered knee issues that affected my mobility and my ability to work at the most critical time i.e. during the establishment of said business. In a gamble (big mistake) I paid for private knee replacement surgery via credit card in order to skip the NHS queue but the surgery was not as effective as I assumed (or was led to believe it would be), there were complications and my mobility and thus ability to work were severely impacted for much longer than expected. My main customer/client disappeared during 2009 a victim of the banking crisis recession with unpaid invoices, my business failed.
The rest is history, unsustainable debt; IVA. I gambled and I lost. I don't ask for sympathy or even understanding for my current situation; I am merely stating the factors that led me to this place.
I am working hard with the IVA to make it work and am extremely grateful for the relief from creditors that it brings. My aim and desire is to totally re-pay my creditors.
However, I guess that all I should ever have posted upon the issue is a follows;
Please be aware there is an issue within the Student Finance system whereby assessment for funding is based entirely and unflinchingly upon the income of the entire family. It does not consider financial commitments and/or actual disposable income in terms of affordability, even when the disposable income is scant and tightly controlled by an official process like an IVA.
This can lead to certain IVA families facing a difficult challenge if they have children entering university.
I think this is a salient point worthy of highlight to this forum. It is awareness that I would like to have considered prior to entering into an IVA0 -
whodathunkit wrote: »If you weren't in an IVA, as you're on a good income, you'd be able to give your student children far more money than those from poorer families get in student loans and grants. I doubt you'd worry about the unfairness of that.
I've slept upon this because I found your reply quite personal and scathing. You seem to challenging my morals.
I am worried about fairness, I believe in it as a principle for human society. To that end I believe that problem cases should be managed, adjudicated upon and treated upon their individual merits and circumstances not simply discarded by a 'one size fits all' system that allows the minority of cases that don't fit the general scope to fall between the cracks and be ignored (which is the direction todays society is headed).
A vast amount of those "poorer families" that you suggest I don't care about will be living on about the same scant level of disposable income that we survive upon during the course of the IVA
Yes I'm in an IVA and yes I made mistakes, and am at fault.
I currently work in my main employment for a company that installs, repairs and maintains tail-lift and hydraulic equipment upon commercial vehicles. At weekends and during holidays I work labouring for a Landscape Gardening firm and for a general builder. In the evenings I am usually driving a mini-cab or delivering takeaway-food. My wife works as a child care assistant in a nursery and also a seamstress (she takes in tailoring alterations and repairs from a number of Dry-Cleaning shops). My sixteen year old daughter works in Dominos pizza behind the counter between sixth form college.
We dedicated to earning as much we can because we are debtors repaying our creditors. Given my sense of fairness we are playing the straight game and every single penny of income we earn is disclosed to our IP and the IVA process.
Given the sentiment you express towards me above, a cynic using the same simplistic and arrogant attitude could argue that many of those 'poorer families' (the one doubt I care about), should get a job; better still, two or three jobs like I have, and then they'd not be 'poorer families'.
Unless of course they are within the IVA process, which by its very nature, ensures that despite any earnings, they will be a 'poorer family' for its duration.0 -
Richard_Carver wrote: »We are not talking about those people. We are talking about 20 year old adults in their own right. Technically, legally, they are not actually their parents.
You generalisation above works for most of the people, most of the time. I agree with it in the general sense. As with any generalisation there are a small percentage of individual cases that don't fit. An IVA case is one such example. So rather than simply dismiss these cases, written off with that horrible explanatory phrase 'falling through the cracks' there should be an adjudication system were the cases that don't fit the norm are at least looked at and dealt with one way or another.
I don't understand your first paragraph but I don't see any difference between someone having high debt repayments on an IVA, a large mortgage or large amounts of consumer debt.
Public funding (benefits being another example) never takes outgoings into consideration and it's quite right that this should be so. I don't see it as falling through the cracks but simply as a matter of principle.
ETA
Re your last post, I certainly didn't intend to be personal in any other way than to remark that parents with good incomes can help their children more than those with low incomes and no system can (or should) change that.
However, your last paragraph has made me lose sympathy for your situation as you imply that those on low incomes are in that situation because of their own failing and because they don't work. You seem to be unaware of how many people have no choice except to work long hours on NMW and little opportunity to do otherwise.
You need to get rid of that chip on your shoulder before it gives you backache!0 -
whodathunkit wrote: »I don't understand your first paragraph but I don't see any difference between someone having high debt repayments on an IVA, a large mortgage or large amounts of consumer debt.
"We are not talking about those people. COLOR=royalblue][I]the IVA parents[/I][/COLOR We are talking about 20 year old adults in their own right I][COLOR=royalblue]the [/COLOR][COLOR=royalblue]applicant for student finance[/COLOR][/I. Technically, legally, they are not actually their parents. [what I meant was; technically what does the financial situation of the relatives have to do with an independent 20 year old adult? On the one hand the government treat them as non-dependant children who are not considered as a part of the family. i.e. child benefits, housing benefits etc. But, when it suits another purpose, they suddenly regain inter-dependency and the families finance is considered within that independent 20 year olds personal funding] .whodathunkit wrote: »However, your last paragraph has made me for your situation as you imply that those on low incomes are in that situation because of their own failing and because they don't work. You seem to be unaware of how many people have no choice except to work long hours on NMW and little opportunity to do otherwise.
I was actually being ironic. Using an outrageous bigoted generalised statement for effect because that is what I felt I received from you in your 'I doubt that you care' post.whodathunkit wrote: »You need to get rid of that chip on your shoulder before it gives you backache!
And you need to get rid of those imaginary Captain's pips on your shoulders before you imagine that you are the Major General of everything and everyone.0 -
whodathunkit wrote: »Public funding (benefits being another example) never takes outgoings into consideration and it's quite right that this should be so.!
You are mad. Benefits awarded simply upon income?
Means testing, allowance for number and age of dependant children, distance to schools and amenities. Age, disablement, mobility, nationality, gender.... and all the other factors including entire public sector departments that go into determining welfare benefits are awarded fairly an accurately...
I think you are opinionated and simply make stuff up to support your opinion of the moment.0 -
Richard_Carver wrote: »You are mad. Benefits awarded simply upon income?
Means testing, allowance for number and age of dependant children, distance to schools and amenities. Age, disablement, mobility, nationality, gender.... and all the other factors including entire public sector departments that go into determining welfare benefits are awarded fairly an accurately...
I think you are opinionated and simply make stuff up to support your opinion of the moment.
Means tested benefits are based on income and savings and
no means tested benefits take outgoings into account. If you were claiming JSA or ESA, as examples, you'd receive exactly the same amount whether you had no debts, were repaying a dozen credit cards or were making IVA payments. The amount you could claim for rent would be fixed and would have no relation to the rent you actually pay.
I can think of no benefits that take gender into account as that would be illegal and why you think you get more money for distance from schools and amenities beats me.
I'm afraid you're arguing with someone with a background in IAG so I have no need to make anything up.0 -
Richard_Carver wrote: »Good questions!
Armed with hindsight I ultimately wouldn't be in the IVA situation in the first place.:)
However, if I'd known the situation in advance of the IVA, (wise after the event and having been informed of a few of the workarounds the canny people use). I'd have had my daughter go live with my widowed mother, her grandmother for two years prior to leaving school/sixth form. The household income would then be my mothers state pension and my daughter would qualify for loans and bursary that would cover the university course, her accommodation and something to live on for food and clothes. We'd pass her what we could for some social and non-essential stuff.
As I've mentioned elsewhere, apart from the Student Finance aspect, the IVA works quite well.
My 2nd daughter starts 6th form college after the summer and we have to find a hefty daily bus fare for her.
If only we were in the EU where full-time students are entitled to free public transport to/from school or college. (if only the UK still had public transport) I watch almost empty buses go past and it's three quid for my school aged kids to go to town.
Sorry, I digress.
Sorry to correct you again but your daughter would have to be officially estranged from you for this to have worked and that would need to have involved reports from social workers or similar.0 -
whodathunkit wrote: »Sorry to correct you again but your daughter would have to be officially estranged from you for this to have worked and that would need to have involved reports from social workers or similar.
Except that I am aware of two actual cases where this is not the case. A young graduate at work lived with his older brother to this end. He explained to me yesterday that his brother's address was registered as his home address at school and sixth form college and all correspondence went there. He ensured that plenty of goods and services were invoiced to him at that address (e.g. mobile phone delivery and contract invoices). When his brother bought a washing machine and dryer they were paid for on the younger brothers cash-card and his name at his brothers address was on the delivery invoice and registered as owner for warranty etc. He also joined a political party as a young member registered to his brothers address. At eighteen just prior to the application he ensured he was registered on the Electoral Role at his brothers address. This sheaf of paperwork, the dated letters and invoices etc. addressed to him at that address sufficed in his case and he was offered fuller funding according to his brother's household income rather than that of his parents, where two other employed and earning siblings and one of their partners live at the parental home. The family, plus his mother and father's earnings pushed the household income above the threshold that would entitle him to only minimum funding.
He has no remorse, because as he says, he did actually live at his brother's flat from aged 16 (albeit tactically) until joining University at 19 and the funding merely reflects the actual situation.
He is a canny and resourceful lad, after three years experience at university he is a wealth of information and could write a black-manual upon loop-holes and exploits within the systems that support student-life within the University environment.
I am aware of another case within one of neighbour's families where an Aunt's address was used in similar 'tactical' circumstances. I'm not sure if the child actually did live with her aunt or not prior to University, but I assume she did and I'm not asking them questions upon that score.
The info is both off-piste for this thread and for me only has hindsight value.0
This discussion has been closed.
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