Electric cars

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  • AnotherJoe
    AnotherJoe Posts: 19,622
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    edited 19 February 2018 at 9:36AM
    Martyn1981 wrote: »

    Perhaps H2 vehicles are a good way to use H2 produced from P2G (power to gas) storage making use of excess renewable generation, but I can't help thinking that simply reversing the process on site via large scale fuel cells to support the grid during peak demand, or low generation periods, is a far better use of that H2 than distributing it piece meal all over the country, when we already have a leccy grid that can do that.

    I often see people say that a good use of H2 is for times when there is excess renewable energy, but a simple thought experiment would rule this out.
    Let's say we have excess RE.
    Option 1. Use it to make H2. Compress that H2 (uses energy). Transport that H2 (uses energy). Cool and store at filling station. (Uses energy). Transfer to vehicle. In vehicle warm and decompress (uses energy). Burn the H2 to create electricity (uses energy) Overall starting at 100 you end up with about 30 in a vehicle plus a lot of complexity.
    Option 2. Transfer the RE to a vehicle directly, or indirectly via a battery. Starting with 100 you end up with about 90.

    One objection to option 2 is that the grid needs upgrading and in some areas it will but the alternative is needing 3x as many renewable resources. Perhaps if we had so many RE sources we were awash and didn't know what to do with them that might be the time to do this, but why would we want to get to that point? That would be hugely costly. We don't want 3x as many areas of the country covered in solar or 3x as many wind turbines out at sea than we need.

    And what hasn't even been mentioned in this is that therefore H2 inherently will cost 3x more than electricity at best (currentiy it's at petrol prices) and the cars cost 2x to 3x because fuel cells are highly complex to build. (Currentiy the two FCEVs on sale are massively subsidised)

    So why would I want an H2 car at 2x cost when there is a 300 mile range EV that I can refuel at home for peanuts? The Tesla M3 fulfils that now and other manufacturers will match that within a couple of years.

    Spend $50k on a Tesla model 3 or a Mirai and get the same sort of range, 300 miles, except you can refuel the tesla at thousands of places and usually at home. Or the Mirai with less space worse acceleration more complex maintainance and cannot be charged at home so always needs visits to filling stations?

    The only way they can make the Mirai work is to subsidise the H2 but thats not a sustainable business model at the cost of H2.

    H2 is a busted flush.
  • NigeWick
    NigeWick Posts: 2,714
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    Pennywise wrote: »
    But how does that work when the price of electricity rises due to demand from millions of electric cars - someone has to pay for new power stations to be built and the national grid to be beefed up and for new charging stations etc.
    Why should the cost of electricity rise when it is getting cheaper to produce (apart from HPC and fossil burning)? It is likely only a few years before local (home in my case) generation and battery backup will be cheaper than the cost of national grid transmission. Battery electric vehicles meantime will be used to balance the grid as owners will buy electricity at low cost and sell it back at peak times.

    Charging stations will also almost certainly have solar PV rooves with battery storage to keep grid provided energy to a minimum.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
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  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,713
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    AnotherJoe wrote: »
    I often see people say that a good use of H2 is for times when there is excess renewable energy, but a simple thought experiment would rule this out.

    Personally, I think you are right. I support P2G as a viable technology to provide large amounts of concentrated storage, but I also assume that it's not economical for grid scale storage.

    CAES (compressed air energy storage) is about twice as efficient, and LAES (liquid air energy storage) is about 60-70% efficient, or nearer to 100% if there is a source of waste heat (co-locate with a gas generation plant). In fact, LAES can exceed 100% efficiency - slight cheat where the waste heat is assumed to have no alternative value.

    I'm sure the market will decide as the technologies and economics sort themselves out. All good fun.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • almillar
    almillar Posts: 8,621
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    They may well provide localised air quality benefits, but the vast majority of our electricity generation is no lower in carbon emissions than what is being replaced.

    I'll pick up on this specific one, since I keep banging on about it.
    If you burn a fossil fuel in your car, that's the same as me using electric from a gas powerplant, roughly, is your point.
    The point you miss, is that the electric produced by that gas powerplant, transports me further than your fuel in your car. So EVEN ignoring zero emission sources, EVEN including coal which is quickly on the way out in the UK at least, an electric car is producing less pollution per mile than an ICE car. So it's not localised, air quality benefits, it's everywhere. You're not simply pushing the pollution elsewhere, there's LESS of it.
    the hydrogen fuel network is pretty limited

    <understatement!>
    I know it takes power to generate hydrogen,

    Hydrogen is lovely. If you can produce it cleanly, I'll happily run my car on the electric from a hydrogen power plant. I don't see the point of cars (specifically cars) carrying round a compressed gas.
    Tesla aren't delivering model 3's because you can't buy one without a waiting list?

    Be fair - Tesla have had big problems with Model 3 delivery, are behind schedule, and as far as the UK is concerned, is a 'future car'.
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,713
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    Given the recent false claims about the CO2 emissions from EV's, this article today is quite timely.

    Electric Car Myth Buster — Well-To-Wheel Emissions
    Myth: electric car well-to-wheel emissions are larger than gas car well-to-wheel emissions.

    Short answer: Electric car well-to-wheel emissions are far, far less than gasmobile well-to-wheel emissions.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • AnotherJoe wrote: »
    Charging stations are paid for by manufacturers

    And the cost passed down to the consumer.

    Whatever way you cut it, electric vehicles and the running costs thereof will not be more cost effective than petrol. The manufacturers wanting a profit and the government wanting their tax revenue will see to that.
  • zeupater
    zeupater Posts: 5,353
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    And the cost passed down to the consumer.

    Whatever way you cut it, electric vehicles and the running costs thereof will not be more cost effective than petrol. The manufacturers wanting a profit and the government wanting their tax revenue will see to that.
    Hi

    I don't think that anyone thinks that costs won't be passed on to the consumer, but claims that vehicles powered by electricity will not be as cost effective as those powered by petrol is effectively nonsense - they're starting to compete now even with battery storage which hasn't even started to benefit from the vast economies of scale which are in the pipeline ... that's not even looking at the vehicle manufacturing costs, servicing costs etc ..

    Design a combustion engine which is pretty close to 100% efficient (in terms of fuel conversion to motive power) and petrol may just about edge it at the moment, but that's about as good as it's likely to get ... remember, with over 100 years of development ICEs are still really inefficient, complex and expensive and this is where EV power & drivetrains have the relative advantage ... efficient, simple & cheap!

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    B)
  • zeupater wrote: »
    Hi

    I don't think that anyone thinks that costs won't be passed on to the consumer, but claims that vehicles powered by electricity will not be as cost effective as those powered by petrol is effectively nonsense - they're starting to compete now even with battery storage which hasn't even started to benefit from the vast economies of scale which are in the pipeline ... that's not even looking at the vehicle manufacturing costs, servicing costs etc ..

    Design a combustion engine which is pretty close to 100% efficient (in terms of fuel conversion to motive power) and petrol may just about edge it at the moment, but that's about as good as it's likely to get ... remember, with over 100 years of development ICEs are still really inefficient, complex and expensive and this is where EV power & drivetrains have the relative advantage ... efficient, simple & cheap!

    HTH
    Z

    Just as soon as you design a battery that lasts for more years than a fuel tank, and costs the same.

    ;)
  • AnotherJoe
    AnotherJoe Posts: 19,622
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    And the cost passed down to the consumer.

    Whatever way you cut it, electric vehicles and the running costs thereof will not be more cost effective than petrol. The manufacturers wanting a profit and the government wanting their tax revenue will see to that.


    They are already more cost effective in many cases. Those cases will rise and they will get more cost effective.
    You would be Canute except Canute knew what he was doing.
  • AdrianC wrote: »
    I haven't, actually. I just don't easily buy hype, especially when the reality doesn't back it up.

    Well, can I suggest that that is not the impression you give to most posters on here?

    I've come across this assertion before, although the previous posting evidence usually undoes the poster. The Guardian newspaper blogs are a particularly fruitful source. In this case you respond to peoples' posts by jumping on another, often unimportant, objection or one that can be overcome by specific targeted action.

    Our attitudes are different, which is why I was asking about what your employment is. An EV wouldn't suit me for all my personal circumstances at the moment, but instead of saying 'they're no good', I'm seeing what the current situation is, how it's going to change in the short and medium term and how to overcome any potential issues there might be in meeting my transport needs.

    Make no mistake, the situation is rapidly changing and you might find it a more interesting exercise in looking at how an electric vehicle might work for you: today or in one or two years time.
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