Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Jm90
    • By Jm90 29th Aug 18, 3:16 PM
    • 117Posts
    • 46Thanks
    Jm90
    Landlord wants more money
    • #1
    • 29th Aug 18, 3:16 PM
    Landlord wants more money 29th Aug 18 at 3:16 PM
    Ok so in February myself, husband and children moved over 2.5hrs from our home town.
    To a private rented house, all done via an estate agent.

    At the start of the tenancy we paid feb, march & april rent upfront and another month upfront as a deposit.

    We were told it would be a 12month tenancy however it was for 6 months, which we didnt realsie until we got here and signed for the house.

    We then paid , May, June & July upfront which is nearly £2500, which was fine, we had it and its nice to be paid up and not worry about it. However, it is not in the agreement, we just did it as felt it was right for us.

    We had a check at the home after 3 months here, all was fine and happy, estate agent offered us to renew our tenancy at the end of 6months to a 12month tenancy.
    She send it out, signed and everything.
    We took our part back to be told the landlord doesnt want it to be 12months incase he needs the house back (lives away)
    So changed it their end to 6months
    I have the original here for 365days signed.
    Never had a revised 6month one sent out.

    We have had a lot of business problems, being stung for nearly 20k, and at one point wondered how on earth we were going to put food on the table.

    August i paid 1 months rent.
    So this month, on the 1st i was going to pay another month, until we are in a position to pay more in advance.
    Ive just recieved an email stating the landlord wants 3 months in advance and because August is paid, can we now pay September & October.

    I'm really worried, im going to try get it up together, however I'm so worried if i can't will he make us leave?
    We have other things to pay and I'm not sure what to do.
    We have never been late or behind, only early and more than expected.

    I just dont know where i stand if i say i cant afford to pay this time around more than required?
Page 4
    • allypally26
    • By allypally26 12th Sep 18, 3:29 PM
    • 43 Posts
    • 62 Thanks
    allypally26
    And the agent will, quite possibly, lie through his teeth. "I spoke to Mrs OP, and she said she was happy with the 6 months amendment, so I altered the contract. She said she had lost her copy, so I could not alter that. Am I sure of that? 100%, Sir! And here's my file note of the conversation."

    It's still worse if the agent produces the recording of the conversation where he asks the OP if it's okay to amend the contract and she says "I suppose so."

    Or the agent may have sent the contract to the tenant with a letter saying specifically that it was not yet approved by the LL and they could only exchange contracts subject to that approval.

    Cases are never 100%. That's the challenge of litigation. Far better to avoid it.
    Originally posted by GDB2222
    This is total crap. I very much doubt you have been involved in 1000 cases unless itís to file them.

    OP please do not take any notice of this user. Pixie (although blunt) and GM are your best resources.
    • GDB2222
    • By GDB2222 12th Sep 18, 3:29 PM
    • 15,249 Posts
    • 82,228 Thanks
    GDB2222
    WT actual F? Why would the OP have to write to the letting agent rejecting their amendment when she has a 12 month fixed term signed by both parties? As someone who claims to have extensive experience in the law you should know that one party cannot unilaterally change the contract. Then again you were a landlord asking about how much notice a tenant has to give less than a year ago. Burn!
    Originally posted by Pixie5740
    Yes, I make no claim to expertise in tenancy litigation. I avoid litigation if at all possible on my own behalf. It's usually better to compromise.

    There are people here who watch too much TV. They think it's a great idea to let the LL start litigation, then the tenant drops some bombshell at the last moment. It may work, but it's not 100%, and no lawyer would advise it.

    The obvious thing to do is to make your case at the earliest possible moment and head off the litigation.
    No reliance should be placed on the above! Absolutely none, do you hear?
    • Pixie5740
    • By Pixie5740 12th Sep 18, 3:34 PM
    • 13,750 Posts
    • 19,905 Thanks
    Pixie5740
    Yes, I make no claim to expertise in tenancy litigation. I avoid litigation if at all possible on my own behalf. It's usually better to compromise.

    There are people here who watch too much TV. They think it's a great idea to let the LL start litigation, then the tenant drops some bombshell at the last moment. It may work, but it's not 100%, and no lawyer would advise it.

    The obvious thing to do is to make your case at the earliest possible moment and head off the litigation.
    Originally posted by GDB2222
    Like pointing out there is a valid 12 month fixed term tenancy in place which the OP has already done.
    • GDB2222
    • By GDB2222 12th Sep 18, 3:45 PM
    • 15,249 Posts
    • 82,228 Thanks
    GDB2222
    Like pointing out there is a valid 12 month fixed term tenancy in place which the OP has already done.
    Originally posted by Pixie5740
    But the OP has just said that she hasn't done so.

    Anyway, I'm out of here. I wish the OP good luck, and I hope the birth goes well.
    No reliance should be placed on the above! Absolutely none, do you hear?
    • Pixie5740
    • By Pixie5740 12th Sep 18, 3:51 PM
    • 13,750 Posts
    • 19,905 Thanks
    Pixie5740
    But the OP has just said that she hasn't done so.

    Anyway, I'm out of here. I wish the OP good luck, and I hope the birth goes well.
    Originally posted by GDB2222
    Really, where did the OP say that?


    Hi all, me again!

    So, we paid the 1 months rent, on time.

    Just recieved a call from the estate agent letting us know the landlord needs ro return from dubai urgently, and wants to be in the house by November.

    Only had an email the other day asking us if we were now paying rent monthly instead of 3months at a time.

    We said we have a contract and she said she needs to see what legal rights he has/we have
    Surely she would know this.


    Absolutely gutted is an understatement

    Can anyone help
    Originally posted by Jm90
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 12th Sep 18, 4:42 PM
    • 8,954 Posts
    • 10,297 Thanks
    Comms69
    Yes, I make no claim to expertise in tenancy litigation. I avoid litigation if at all possible on my own behalf. It's usually better to compromise.

    There are people here who watch too much TV. They think it's a great idea to let the LL start litigation, then the tenant drops some bombshell at the last moment. It may work, but it's not 100%, and no lawyer would advise it.

    The obvious thing to do is to make your case at the earliest possible moment and head off the litigation.
    Originally posted by GDB2222


    You keep calling it litigation - presumably in an effort to scare the OP. Judge's routinely throw out s.21 claims, which are no fault evictions, for minor errors. The reason behind this is quite simple - a LA and LL are held to a higher standard than a tenant. They are expected to do things absolutely correctly, where as a lay tenant is afforded much more leniency by the court.


    I don't believe your claim that you have more than 1,000 cases and 25 years experience in law, it just doesn't add up.


    No one is claiming a tenant drop a bombshell last minute, as you would know (were the above claim true) the tenant would receive opportunity to reply in writing to the claim. I haven't seen anyone suggest for a second the tenant turn up on the date of the hearing with a copy of the tenancy and drop a 'bombshell'.


    Everyone and their nan knows you don't show your cards before you need to. The OP has explained the situation and that is that. The LL choosing to start a vexatious legal claim is far more likely to attract the courts fury than a tenant who has done NOTHING wrong....
    • macman
    • By macman 12th Sep 18, 5:01 PM
    • 43,309 Posts
    • 18,496 Thanks
    macman
    No i do, i apologise if it seems that way at all, i was just explaining what was said to shelter & also the person who asked if i rejected the 6 month contract in writing as i didn't.
    Originally posted by Jm90
    You don't have to reject the 6 month contract, because you never signed it. The LL requested a change to 6m, but that is irrelevant: he cannot unilaterally change the contract. You've been told this numerous times now.
    He cannot start eviction proceedings until the end of the fixed term. His initial S21 will fail because he never supplied an EPC. By Feb you will be due another GSC, and I doubt if that will appear in time either. Once he's got all that sorted, re-serves his S21, and eventually gets a possession order, it could take another month before the bailiffs turn up. May perhaps?
    Just pay your rent monthly on time and sit tight: you do not need to do anything else.
    Last edited by macman; 12-09-2018 at 5:13 PM.
    No free lunch, and no free laptop
    • Jm90
    • By Jm90 13th Sep 18, 4:17 PM
    • 117 Posts
    • 46 Thanks
    Jm90
    So i recieved a call again from shelter cymru today, they asked me to send them a copy of my tenancy to them, which i did and because it mentions in my tenancy about him possibly moving back here, as i mentioned in previous posts they have said he that he cannot use a section 21, however can use a ground one section 8.
    Even if we have done no wrong
    • brianposter
    • By brianposter 13th Sep 18, 4:42 PM
    • 403 Posts
    • 130 Thanks
    brianposter
    The sensible thing to do seems to be to ask the estate agent if they can sort something out which suits everybody. The EA may well have suitable alternative accomodation on their books and obviously have an interest in resolving the problem.
    • Jm90
    • By Jm90 13th Sep 18, 4:45 PM
    • 117 Posts
    • 46 Thanks
    Jm90
    Thank you... should i recieve this notice i will have to try work something out.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 13th Sep 18, 5:24 PM
    • 8,954 Posts
    • 10,297 Thanks
    Comms69
    So i recieved a call again from shelter cymru today, they asked me to send them a copy of my tenancy to them, which i did and because it mentions in my tenancy about him possibly moving back here, as i mentioned in previous posts they have said he that he cannot use a section 21, however can use a ground one section 8.
    Even if we have done no wrong
    Originally posted by Jm90
    S8 g1 cannot be used in a fixed term....

    Iím pretty sure thatís been mentioned. Shelter should know this. Also the notice is actually quite precise for ground 1 to be effective.
    • Jm90
    • By Jm90 13th Sep 18, 5:54 PM
    • 117 Posts
    • 46 Thanks
    Jm90
    Oh i see, i said i know he can't serve a section 21.
    She said yes not that, however there is another he can use.
    It definitely was S8 G1 on the phone she mentioned.

    This was in the email ive just noticed.
    I will copy and paste what she has said.


    "Thank you for sending this over. Unfortunately, the tenancy agreement does include a Ďprior noticeí that the Landlord may rely on ground 1, Schedule 2 of the 1988 Housing Act and so, provided the Notice is written in the correct format and gives 2 monthsí Notice, this will be a mandatory ground for possession"
    • CarrieVS
    • By CarrieVS 14th Sep 18, 9:02 AM
    • 199 Posts
    • 307 Thanks
    CarrieVS
    I am some random idiot on the internet with ZERO experience in tenancy law. But since everyone else including Shelter seem to be in disagreement, I may as well add my two-pennyworth.

    The intention of a ground 1 notice is to allow possession ... due to living in the property as the landlords only or principle home. However, possession may not be sought during the fixed term and even during any periodic term, two months notice is required. Therefore, since February 1997, the normal section 21 notice (2 months notice) is used and a landlord does not need to prove whether they intend to live in the property or not.
    (Emphasis mine)

    This comes from a site supplying landlords with advice and documents (I can't post a link but the site is called landlordsguild). I should note that I can't find this provision in the actual text of the law, but I don't really know how to read it or whether that provision even comes from the same legislation. (It mentions February 1997 so perhaps some additional protections for tenants were brought into force then. Does anyone know?)

    But if accurate, given that you are in the 12 month fixed term of your tenancy, this means that your landlord can ask you on this ground to move out at the end of that 12 month term (provided he gives the proper notice.) You may possibly want to go back to Shelter and point out that the agent has told you he will serve notice under this ground to take possession before the end of the fixed period, and ask them if that makes a difference, as I'm sure they know more than me.

    For what it's worth, I have my suspicions that the landlord never authorised a 12 month contract, the agent offered you one by mistake and realised that mistake after it was signed, then tried to paper over the crack in their a*se by changing the contract, hoping you would agree to the amendment without realising you had no obligation to. If so they're probably in extremely hot water with their client, your landlord, but that's no fault of yours and they can't punish you for it.

    I can't imagine there'd be any harm in setting out explicitly in writing to the agent (if you haven't already) the fact that you have a 12 month contract signed by both parties, that any 6 month contract was never signed by you, and that any such contract with your signature on it is fraudulent. I know you told them over the phone but I'm willing to bet you could set out your position more clearly and unambiguously on paper, besides that having a paper record may carry a lot more weight if it should come to any sort of arbitration or even to court (and makes it clear to them that you know your rights and are capable of defending them - if they know they are in the wrong and are trying to scare you into leaving voluntarily, that may make them back down.)

    Keep copies of anything you send them in writing, and write down what was said in all conversations, just in case it's needed.
    • Pixie5740
    • By Pixie5740 14th Sep 18, 10:32 AM
    • 13,750 Posts
    • 19,905 Thanks
    Pixie5740
    "Thank you for sending this over. Unfortunately, the tenancy agreement does include a ‘prior notice’ that the Landlord may rely on ground 1, Schedule 2 of the 1988 Housing Act and so, provided the Notice is written in the correct format and gives 2 months’ Notice, this will be a mandatory ground for possession"
    Originally posted by Jm90
    This is what the Housing Act 1988, Section 7 - Orders for Possession says:

    (5A)The court shall not make an order for possession of a dwellinghouse let on an assured periodic tenancy arising under Schedule 10 to the Local Government and Housing Act 1989 on any of the following grounds, that is to say,—
    (a)Grounds 1, 2 , 5, 7A and 7B in Part I of Schedule 2 to this Act;
    (b)Ground 16 in Part II of that Schedule; and
    (c)if the assured periodic tenancy arose on the termination of a former 1954 Act tenancy, within the meaning of the said Schedule 10, Ground 6 in Part I of Schedule 2 to this Act.
    (6)The court shall not make an order for possession of a dwelling-house to take effect at a time when it is let on an assured fixed term tenancy unless
    (a)the ground for possession is Ground 2, Ground 7A, Ground 7B or Ground 8 in Part I of Schedule 2 to this Act or any of the grounds in Part II of that Schedule, other than Ground 9 or Ground 16; and
    (b)the terms of the tenancy make provision for it to be brought to an end on the ground in question (whether that provision takes the form of a provision for re-entry, for forfeiture, for determination by notice or otherwise).
    That reads to me* that Section 8 Ground 1 cannot be used to end a fixed term early. Mind you that section relates to Assured Tenancies rather than Short Assured Tenancies. Go back and query that with Shelter Cymru.

    I wonder then what the point of Ground 1 is then, is it just faster than a Section 21 and a mandatory ground for eviction even if the landlord has c0cked up i.e. not protected the deposit, provided a GSC, etc.

    *Caveat: I am not a lawyer and I have not handled over 1,000 cases, not even to file them.
    Last edited by Pixie5740; 14-09-2018 at 11:25 AM.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 14th Sep 18, 10:36 AM
    • 8,954 Posts
    • 10,297 Thanks
    Comms69
    This is what the Housing Act 1988, Section 7 - Orders for Possession says:



    That reads to me* that Section 8 Ground 1 cannot be used to end a fixed term early. Go back and query that with Shelter Cymru.

    I wonder then what the point of Ground 1 is then, is it just faster than a Section 21 and a mandatory ground for eviction even if the landlord has c0cked up i.e. not protected the deposit, provided a GSC, etc.

    *Caveat: I am not a lawyer and I have not handled over 1,000 cases, not even to file them.
    Originally posted by Pixie5740
    You're right it's basically an 'easy' s.21 that doesn't need to concern itself with deposit, GSC, etc.


    Tessa summarised the same way in her series on evictions
    • Jm90
    • By Jm90 14th Sep 18, 10:46 AM
    • 117 Posts
    • 46 Thanks
    Jm90
    Thank you,

    Well, ive not received a notice today or heard anything so until i do, i won't act.
    Maybe it was an idle threat in the hope i will agree to pay three months in advance, who knows the estate agent hasnt mentioned it...yet

    Ive read up on the ground shelter quoted me ' Ground 1, schedual 2' but i think (hope) it only applies to AT not AST

    Shelter seemed to think cos they wrote in the contact he would be able to take possesion under this ground then it can be used.

    Ive emailed shelter asking to check again.

    I guess the estate agent thinks, as they changed things their end that we have until feb 19, however ours is until august 19, which if he cannot use this ground i will fight it.

    I also think the landlord has no idea we have a signed 12 month contract, i think they have realised they made a huge error. I have no way in contacting him directly or whether i should.
    Only way would be via his father who lives in the village.

    I know people get annoyed that im asking or feel as though i am questioning their advice but need to be 100% certain as everything feels so conflicting.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 14th Sep 18, 11:04 AM
    • 8,954 Posts
    • 10,297 Thanks
    Comms69
    Thank you,

    Well, ive not received a notice today or heard anything so until i do, i won't act.
    Maybe it was an idle threat in the hope i will agree to pay three months in advance, who knows the estate agent hasnt mentioned it...yet

    Ive read up on the ground shelter quoted me ' Ground 1, schedual 2' but i think (hope) it only applies to AT not AST

    Shelter seemed to think cos they wrote in the contact he would be able to take possesion under this ground then it can be used.

    Ive emailed shelter asking to check again.

    I guess the estate agent thinks, as they changed things their end that we have until feb 19, however ours is until august 19, which if he cannot use this ground i will fight it.

    I also think the landlord has no idea we have a signed 12 month contract, i think they have realised they made a huge error. I have no way in contacting him directly or whether i should.
    Only way would be via his father who lives in the village.

    I know people get annoyed that im asking or feel as though i am questioning their advice but need to be 100% certain as everything feels so conflicting.
    Originally posted by Jm90


    Trust G_M, Pixie, (me)


    I'm not judging anyone else because lots of people has been correct, but if you get 2 of the 3 saying the same thing you're onto a winner.


    Your best bet is to decide how much you want to be paid to move out and see how desperate the landlord gets.
    • Jm90
    • By Jm90 21st Sep 18, 4:45 PM
    • 117 Posts
    • 46 Thanks
    Jm90
    So shelter now agree that should he serve a notice, it would not take effect until the end of the fixed term... They are just trying to find out if he could potentially serve the notice now ready for the end of the fixed term...

    I had another call from the estate agents today, saying the landlord is still returning and wants the house back by the end of November, he has offered to pay our moving costs upto the total of £300 for us to leave.
    I said we have a tenancy and she said yes, until Feb, so I said that the one I have here which is until August which she said she would check.
    However when she came back just said to talk it over with my husband about moving, no more mention of the tenancy length.
    I asked what ground he would be using and she said ' well, it's for personal reasons really and would like to move back to the property'

    Nothing in writing as of yet. I am going to email but not sure how to word it as I am not prepared to move right before Xmas if I don't have too.
    • Pixie5740
    • By Pixie5740 21st Sep 18, 4:56 PM
    • 13,750 Posts
    • 19,905 Thanks
    Pixie5740
    You have 2 choices.

    1) Stick to your guns and see out your legally binding 12 month AST.

    2) Present your terms for agreeing an early surrender. I can guarantee that if the shoe were on the other foot the landlord would want more than an extra £300 if you wanted to end the tenancy early. If you are prepared to move early you tell them when you're prepared to move i.e. you could move out next month and pick a number greater than £300.
    • Jm90
    • By Jm90 21st Sep 18, 7:53 PM
    • 117 Posts
    • 46 Thanks
    Jm90
    Thanks pixie.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

86Posts Today

3,135Users online

Martin's Twitter