Discuss the free solar panel company: A Shade Greener

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  • K4blades
    K4blades Posts: 118 Forumite
    To Clarify,
    The 3.3 kw that you mention, Sherlock, is 3.3 kwh, (peak).
    This means that under ideal conditions you'll generate 3.3 kws for that hour, not all the day as I seem to understand your post.
    Generally speaking, you generate a lesser amount in the morning, then as the sun rises, so does what you are generating, then as the sun lowers again later in the day, the amount you generate diminishes.
  • grahamc2003
    grahamc2003 Posts: 1,771 Forumite
    K4blades wrote: »
    To Clarify,
    The 3.3 kw that you mention, Sherlock, is 3.3 kwh, (peak).
    This means that under ideal conditions you'll generate 3.3 kws for that hour, .

    Incorrect. The original poster was correct. The rating of panels is in kw (the power), and in this case the rating or nominal peak power 3.3kwp (kilowatts peak - actually the p is a subscript). Under ideal conditions, generating 3.3kw for one hour will produce 3.3kwh (kilowatt hours) of energy.
  • Cardew
    Cardew Posts: 29,036
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    To be strictly accurate a 3.3kWp system will generate exactly 3.3kW in controlled laboratory conditions of 'sunlight', temperature and air mass and it is unlikely that an ASG system will achieve 3.3kW unless they start installing them much further South in England.

    In reply to a query from an ASG customer who wasn't getting 3.3kW, I posted this:
    The kW rating of a panel is the output achieved under laboratory conditions of known parameters and is not indicative of the output it will achieve in any set location.

    Thus your 18 panel 3.3kW array(presumably in Yorkshire) may never reach an output of 3.3kW.

    If it was in, say, Norway it would have a lower peak output and on the equator considerably in excess of 3.3kW.

    The important figure is the kWh it will produce in a year - typically 3,000kWh or so for your array I would think.

    Sarah Dyson of ASG agreed:
    Further, as Cardew states, it is unlikely that your system will ever achieve 3.3. However, we only fit on roofs that will provide a MINIMUM yield of 2800kw hours per annum, so you can expect more than that.

    Sarah Dyson - A Shade Greener
  • K4blades
    K4blades Posts: 118 Forumite
    OK, technically you both are correct, but I was referring to this sentence:

    Your solar panels will create up to 3.3Kw on a sunny day but if you have a couple of items on at the same time like the washing machine and hoover the electricity you need for both of them will take you WAY OVER the 3.3Kw you have free, so you are 'paying' your electricity supplier for the extra usage even on a sunny day between 11am and 3pm!

    The way I read this, it suggested that the total generated for the day would be 3.3kwhs, which of course, it won't be, the total on any particular day would depend on the conditions, as well as other variables, but specifically on a sunny day, well my best is 24.
    The 3.3 referred to relates to the kwp of the system installed by ASG, so a reference to the day is mis-leading as it refers to what can be generated in 1 hour under ideal, (or lab) conditions.
  • Cardew
    Cardew Posts: 29,036
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    K4blades wrote: »
    OK, technically you both are correct, but I was referring to this sentence:

    Your solar panels will create up to 3.3Kw on a sunny day but if you have a couple of items on at the same time like the washing machine and hoover the electricity you need for both of them will take you WAY OVER the 3.3Kw you have free, so you are 'paying' your electricity supplier for the extra usage even on a sunny day between 11am and 3pm!

    The way I read this, it suggested that the total generated for the day would be 3.3kwhs, which of course, it won't be, the total on any particular day would depend on the conditions, as well as other variables, but specifically on a sunny day, well my best is 24.
    The 3.3 referred to relates to the kwp of the system installed by ASG, so a reference to the day is mis-leading as it refers to what can be generated in 1 hour under ideal, (or lab) conditions.

    I suggest you simply mis-read 'sherlock' - and still are!

    The ASG man correctly stated that the panels would generate up to 3.3 kW. - on a 'sunny day'.

    His point was that if you had 2 items like 'washing machine and hoover' the load would be in excess of 3.3kW(around 5kW). So hoover first and then washing machine.

    For the OP - there is too much emphasis by all 'rent a roof' companies on using the high 3kW output as it gives the impression that sort of power is always available - and it rarely reaches that level and stays there.

    A poster in the Green forum(free juice) has published a link to his website. This has a spreadsheet showing the output at 15 minute intervals every day - it demonstrates how quickly output changes from minute to minute, let alone each day.
  • Blimey - when I entered my experience with ASG I didn't intend to create a whole debate on the output of the solar panels!:cool:
    All of your comments are correct in some way or another and some of you have not read my report the way I intended it to be read, which is my fault for not making the report clearer!
    My main point is that if you can't afford to buy the solar panels yourself, you can have solar panels provided, fitted and maintained FREE for 25 years!
    If I was looking to buy a house and two were very simillar and one had solar panels on, then I would buy that house! We all like to think we are trying to 'do our bit' to help save the planet and a house with solar panels is more appealing to me as it helps me feel that I was doing my 'bit'!
    Not all of us can afford to move house, have all the expense that moving house costs and then have £12000 to £18000 extra cash to buy solar panels and then have to pay someone to install and maintain them!
    A Shade Greener have been very honest about what you will and will not acheive from your panels and they have got fantastic customer service!
    We all have our own opinions but since our panels have been installed we have had a lot of interest from neighbours (some we have never spoken to before) who are wanting to save both money and help the planet! One has had solar panels fitted and a few more have signed contracts and are awaiting their installation date!:wave:
  • Hi

    Ashadegreener has asked us to post a response to some questions. MSE doesn't endorse anything a company says on the forum,

    There are other reasons - you can't put rooms in your loft, and you are responsible to ensure no trees etc grow and shade your roof. What happens if a neighbours tree grows in the next 25 years?

    Loft conversions are NOT barred under our agreement. We have already had one customer who had a loft conversion with our system in place – we simply removed the entire system to allow for the conversion then re-installed it free of charge, as per the terms of our lease. There is no bar to conversion, renovation or extension. As regards shading, if a neighbour’s tree does eventually cause shading then it is ASG that is responsible for removing the system at no cost to the homeowner.
    ASG collect something like £1,300 each year from using your roof and you typically(according to the Energy Saving Trust) will save £70 a year off your electricity bill.

    Even the EST admit that their figures are based on estimates, it is also based on a smaller system than the one we install. What we have is concrete feedback from many customers who have had our system for over 12 months now and all of the feedback contradicts those figures. From the feedback we are getting, the savings appear to be between 30%-60%. However, it is accepted that if customers who are out all day and who make no concerted effort to use the daytime electricity provided by the solar PV then the savings are, of course, likely to be minimal, and that wouldn’t surprise anyone.
    All the advice is therefore that you should buy your own system and pocket all the money.
    ASG agrees with this, but the problem faced by many people is that there are no finance companies willing to lend in respect of solar pv and maybe the MSE journalists should be lobbying them to do so.
    Could you do with a Money Makeover?


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  • Cardew
    Cardew Posts: 29,036
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    MSE_Andrea wrote: »
    Even the EST admit that their figures are based on estimates, it is also based on a smaller system than the one we install. What we have is concrete feedback from many customers who have had our system for over 12 months now and all of the feedback contradicts those figures. From the feedback we are getting, the savings appear to be between 30%-60%.
    What 'concrete feedback' would that be?


    ASG do not fit export meters as far as I am aware. So how do the customers 'calculate' their savings?

    The only way is to know how much electricity was generated and how much was exported.(EST say it is typically 75%) is to know the generated and exported figures.

    So if the ASG 3.3kWp system generates 3,000kWh pa and 2,250kWh is exported then 750kWh is used in the property which @ 10p/kWh is £75. pa.

    I suspect 'customer's feedback' will be statements like 'last year I spent £xx and this year £yy.' Hardly concrete evidence that those savings are due to the PV system?

    There are many reports from people who have had their own systems for some while(some with export meters) and state how difficult it is to use the generated electricity in the house.

    It has been shown many times that people WANT to believe that they are making big savings for any device etc to justify their course of action and make completely unsupportable and exaggerated claims.

    Many people who make a legally binding committment to rent out their roof for 25 years - with it binding on future owners - will find it very difficult to admit the savings are less than they envisaged.

    There are countless examples on MSE of such claims, for all manner of appliances and devices that save huge amounts - from Heat pumps right down to those who swear blind that a £10 magnet strapped to the fuel line of your car or oil central heating system reduces consumption by xx%

    Secondly 30%-60% saving is meaningless! 30%-60% of what amount of electricity?

    30%-60% of 1,000kWh is 300kWh to 600kWh.

    30%-60% of 10,000kWh is 3,000kWh to 6,000kWh!

    If ASG - and all of the other 'Rent a Roof' firms - were so confident that their systems provided much greater savings than the EST typical estimate of £70 they could very easily arrange for independantly monitored trials of their systems.

    Or perhaps ASG give a range of savings they think are 'typical' for their 3.3kWp. If they are so confident that the EST estimate is incorrect, what figure do ASG have in mind?

    So come on ASG - why not put in writing what you feel are typical savings?
  • MattHawkins
    MattHawkins Posts: 53
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    If I was buying a house today I would go for the house with solar panels but not if they were rented. I would either want an empty roof or my own panels.

    I would not buy a house that came with small print. Especially not small print I didn't choose.

    The main reason is the technology is moving fast and in five years time I wouldn't want to be stuck with 2011 panels for another 20 years. In 2016 the panels will be better and cheaper. It would be like being given a 50 inch flat screen TV for free ... on the condition you couldn't replace it for 20 years. Would you still want to be using a TV from 1991? Or maybe a free 56k modem connection but you had to use it for 25 years.

    At least if you own the panels you can get £1000-1300 a year. In 10 years time that has paid for panels and the next 15 is profit.

    I was tempted to buy a system until I thought about the drop in price year on year. The scenario goes something like this ... me and my neighbour have £15,000. I buy a PV system and he keeps his money in a shoe box. After two years I have earnt £2000 through the feed in tariffs and I've got panels on the roof. My neighbour has still got £15,000 but now panels are only £13,000 to buy new. He buys a system. We are both equal in terms of money and we both have systems on the roof but he has a newer system.

    So why buy now when the prices are dropping at the same rate as you can earn?
  • Cardew
    Cardew Posts: 29,036
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    The scenario goes something like this ... me and my neighbour have £15,000. I buy a PV system and he keeps his money in a shoe box. After two years I have earnt £2000 through the feed in tariffs and I've got panels on the roof. My neighbour has still got £15,000 but now panels are only £13,000 to buy new. He buys a system. We are both equal in terms of money and we both have systems on the roof but he has a newer system.


    So why buy now when the prices are dropping at the same rate as you can earn?

    Perhaps this is not pertinent to ASG's 'rent a roof' system. However in answer to the question you posed;

    In 2 years time someone who bought a system now will have had two increases in their subsidy(FIT) in line with inflation.

    Someone buying in two years time will have seen two decreases in the subsidy(FIT) as the FIT decreases year on year.

    However you are correct that your neighbour's £15,000 left invested for 2 years would be about £16000 and it may well be that if installation prices have dropped sufficiently, he may still be better off even allowing for getting a lower rate of FIT.

    The other point is that it has always been stated that there is a finite amount of money the will be available for FITs. (bear in mind that we pay for the subsidy in higher electricity prices)

    With the proliferation of 'rent a roof' companies installing thousands of PV systems for individuals(and taking all of their subsidies) it may well be in two years time that the Government will halt the scheme for new systems.
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