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  • FIRST POST
    • JulieD123
    • By JulieD123 22nd Oct 19, 4:00 PM
    • 2Posts
    • 1Thanks
    JulieD123
    Speeding ticket, calibration certificate
    • #1
    • 22nd Oct 19, 4:00 PM
    Speeding ticket, calibration certificate 22nd Oct 19 at 4:00 PM
    Hi.
    My husband got a speeding ticket through post from Kent Police. Signed into their website to check offence and opening their calibration certificate for that speed camera. Says expiry date is July 2019. Does that mean the certificate is invalid and we could appeal the ticket?
Page 2
    • loskie
    • By loskie 23rd Oct 19, 7:27 AM
    • 1,656 Posts
    • 1,034 Thanks
    loskie
    if NOT calibrated then it is NOT being operated in the approved manner.
    It would not stand scrutiny.
    • SHAFT
    • By SHAFT 23rd Oct 19, 7:47 AM
    • 526 Posts
    • 348 Thanks
    SHAFT
    I don't want to start the usual argument but you have it wrong because "reasonable doubt" does not enter into it. The prosecution does not have to prove that the device was reliable. An approved device operated in the approved manner is assumed to be working correctly unless the contrary can be proved. They will produce evidence that it was an approved device and that it was operated correctly. The court then makes the assumption that it is reliable. That will be the end of their case and without a defence (and absent any procedural mess-up or irregularity) the court would convict. They would have no reason to have any doubts (reasonable or otherwise) surrounding the calibration certificate because it would not be necessary for it to be produced as part of the prosecution case.

    The defendant then raises the unreliability of the device in his defence. The onus is on him to prove (on "the balance of probabilities", not beyond reasonable doubt) that the device cannot be relied upon to prove the speed limit or it was broken or defective and that may include lack of recent or proper calibration. The prosecution is given the opportunity to rebut the defendant's defence, probably by bringing their own expert evidence.

    That is why this OP's husband must be particularly careful. All the prosecution has to prove is that it was an approved device operated in the approved manner. Any challenge to its reliability must be made out by the defendant and "casting doubt" will not cut the mustard. He cannot say "this could have happened" or "that might have happened". He has to prove that it did happen in his particular case. It may well be true, as you said earlier, that the CPS might discontinue if they learn of deficient calibration but that should not be relied upon as a strategy, especially as by that time the opportunity for a course or fixed penalty (if appropriate) is lost.
    Originally posted by TooManyPoints
    Without a valid certificate CPS will discontinue. If you know as much as you claim you will have seen similar things happen, I have.
    • SHAFT
    • By SHAFT 23rd Oct 19, 7:50 AM
    • 526 Posts
    • 348 Thanks
    SHAFT
    One word - pepipoo.

    As far as what SHAFT says, the advice from pepipoo is to not rely on a policeman - current or former - for legal advice.

    Legally, an approved device is considered satisfactory unless it can be proved otherwise. Failure would be very very expensive.
    Originally posted by Mercdriver
    Without calibration it isn't approved.

    But you're advising to go onto pepipoo and take advice from the ex police members one of whom is a mod?
    Last edited by SHAFT; 23-10-2019 at 7:54 AM.
    • Car 54
    • By Car 54 23rd Oct 19, 8:14 AM
    • 4,674 Posts
    • 2,982 Thanks
    Car 54
    Without calibration it isn't approved.
    Originally posted by SHAFT
    There is no mention of calibration in the Type Approval documents.
    • hollie.weimeraner
    • By hollie.weimeraner 23rd Oct 19, 8:21 AM
    • 1,852 Posts
    • 1,315 Thanks
    hollie.weimeraner
    Devices are calibrated for a reason - to ensure they are accurate. If the device hasn't been calibrated how can the prosecution prove that the device was accurate?

    Pepipoo is your friend here but personally I would be contacting the said Police Force and asking if there is a current calibration certificate. If not I would definitely consider pleading not guilty and asking for the evidence of the calibration.

    Most likely is that the website hasn't been updated with the current calibration certificate.
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    • TonyMMM
    • By TonyMMM 23rd Oct 19, 8:43 AM
    • 2,947 Posts
    • 3,411 Thanks
    TonyMMM
    The myth of calibration certificates continues to be spread ....... could be a very expensive day out if taken to court just on that basis.
    • Mercdriver
    • By Mercdriver 23rd Oct 19, 9:15 AM
    • 2,861 Posts
    • 1,983 Thanks
    Mercdriver
    Without calibration it isn't approved.

    But you're advising to go onto pepipoo and take advice from the ex police members one of whom is a mod?
    Originally posted by SHAFT
    One of them is a specialist motoring solicitor TonyMMM who has replied here.

    Calibration is a red herring. The defendant would have to prove that the device wasn't working properly, NOT that it hadn't been calibrated.

    Are you offering to offset the OP's very expensive costs if he follows your advice?

    I thought not.

    What a brave keyboard warrior, Constable.
    • Mercdriver
    • By Mercdriver 23rd Oct 19, 9:24 AM
    • 2,861 Posts
    • 1,983 Thanks
    Mercdriver
    In all seriousness, OP, if your OH is considering opposing this, even though he might qualify for either safety course or fixed penalty, take advice from a specialist solicitor (expensive) who will be able to call on specialist experts (very expensive). But be prepared to face the CPS with their (very expensive) experts.

    Don't follow the route of the guy from Bristol who spent tens of thousands avoiding a £100 fine. Especially based on the advice of someone who has been banned from this forum several times. How many alter egos is it now, Andy? Be honest, rather than report, we all know who you are, Andy.
    • SHAFT
    • By SHAFT 23rd Oct 19, 10:38 AM
    • 526 Posts
    • 348 Thanks
    SHAFT
    One of them is a specialist motoring solicitor TonyMMM who has replied here.

    Calibration is a red herring. The defendant would have to prove that the device wasn't working properly, NOT that it hadn't been calibrated.

    Are you offering to offset the OP's very expensive costs if he follows your advice?

    I thought not.

    What a brave keyboard warrior, Constable.
    Originally posted by Mercdriver
    You obviously know more about the CPS so I'll leave it with you.
    • Blackbeard of Perranporth
    • By Blackbeard of Perranporth 23rd Oct 19, 12:18 PM
    • 6,379 Posts
    • 37,239 Thanks
    Blackbeard of Perranporth
    No problem OP, you get your current husband to contest this. During which time, he will lose his place on the course, if offered or the fixed three points. Obviously he does not want this.


    Mind you, having just recently been done at 34 mph! and attending a course, my licence remains clean! Though one guy turned up, thinking he only had to register and walked out. He is now up in front of the beak and is expected to get 6 points and a bigger fine!


    But alas, you know the camera was out of calibration? No problem? Just that when the summons to the beak arrives, they gaps will had been filled in and their case more or less water tight!


    As a side note, when my letter for the course arrived, they had spelled my name wrong! When I registered at the course, it had been corrected!
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    • TooManyPoints
    • By TooManyPoints 23rd Oct 19, 2:06 PM
    • 359 Posts
    • 185 Thanks
    TooManyPoints
    If the device hasn't been calibrated how can the prosecution prove that the device was accurate?
    They don't have to, as I have explained. The defendant has to prove that it was not accurate and whilst the lack of a valid calibration certificate might help, it does not do that by itself. As mentioned above, the lack of a valid calibration certificate does not jeopardise the claim that the device is type approved and operated in the approved manner. If you think about it, a device is deemed perfectly accurate and reliable on the day its certificate expires but the following day it cannot be relied upon for no other reason than it has not been calibrated for 366 days. That is a ludicrous submission which would gain no ground in any court.

    Unless anything fresh is raised I'm out now because I've said all I need to. All I can say to JulieD (the OP) is this: do not be fooled by anyone here (or anywhere else) into believing that the lack of a valid calibration certificate is a "Get out of Jail Free" card. It is a bar-room myth. Do not lead your husband to believe that if there is no such certificate all he has to do is turn up in court and say "There was no valid calibration certificate so there must be doubt as to the accuracy of the device". It will not work. The CPS may discontinue a prosecution if they find out there is no valid calibration. I would not rely on it and I doubt that they will anyway because there is no legal basis for them to do so. They will have all the evidence they need to support a conviction and can easily rebut the argument that the device is unreliable if that argument is based solely on the lack of a valid certificate. More than that since calibration certificates do not form a routine item of evidence they may not even find out that there is no valid certificate until your husband enters his Not Guilty plea and outlines the basis of his defence. If they decide to continue, by that time the option of out of court disposals will be lost and he will even lose part of his discount for an early guilty plea if he is convicted.

    If you doubt my advice, as suggested seek guidance elsewhere. Despite the warnings, Pepipoo is a good place to start or you could seek a solicitor who will provide a free initial consultation (though it would be wise to use a specialist motoring solicitor).
    • iolanthe07
    • By iolanthe07 23rd Oct 19, 2:19 PM
    • 5,250 Posts
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    iolanthe07
    If your husband knows in his heart that he has been caught bang to rights, he might just as well suck it up, move on with his life, and save himself a lot of stress.
    I used to think that good grammar is important, but now I know that good wine is importanter.
    • tonyh66
    • By tonyh66 23rd Oct 19, 2:38 PM
    • 1,493 Posts
    • 1,022 Thanks
    tonyh66
    If your husband knows in his heart that he has been caught bang to rights, he might just as well suck it up, move on with his life, and save himself a lot of stress.
    Originally posted by iolanthe07
    This...tell your husband to put his big boy pants on and take his punishment instead of crying like a baby.
    • SHAFT
    • By SHAFT 23rd Oct 19, 2:40 PM
    • 526 Posts
    • 348 Thanks
    SHAFT
    They don't have to, as I have explained. The defendant has to prove that it was not accurate and whilst the lack of a valid calibration certificate might help, it does not do that by itself. As mentioned above, the lack of a valid calibration certificate does not jeopardise the claim that the device is type approved and operated in the approved manner. If you think about it, a device is deemed perfectly accurate and reliable on the day its certificate expires but the following day it cannot be relied upon for no other reason than it has not been calibrated for 366 days. That is a ludicrous submission which would gain no ground in any court.

    Unless anything fresh is raised I'm out now because I've said all I need to. All I can say to JulieD (the OP) is this: do not be fooled by anyone here (or anywhere else) into believing that the lack of a valid calibration certificate is a "Get out of Jail Free" card. It is a bar-room myth. Do not lead your husband to believe that if there is no such certificate all he has to do is turn up in court and say "There was no valid calibration certificate so there must be doubt as to the accuracy of the device". It will not work. The CPS may discontinue a prosecution if they find out there is no valid calibration. I would not rely on it and I doubt that they will anyway because there is no legal basis for them to do so. They will have all the evidence they need to support a conviction and can easily rebut the argument that the device is unreliable if that argument is based solely on the lack of a valid certificate. More than that since calibration certificates do not form a routine item of evidence they may not even find out that there is no valid certificate until your husband enters his Not Guilty plea and outlines the basis of his defence. If they decide to continue, by that time the option of out of court disposals will be lost and he will even lose part of his discount for an early guilty plea if he is convicted.

    If you doubt my advice, as suggested seek guidance elsewhere. Despite the warnings, Pepipoo is a good place to start or you could seek a solicitor who will provide a free initial consultation (though it would be wise to use a specialist motoring solicitor).
    Originally posted by TooManyPoints

    All the in car speed detection equipment fails to work the minute it's out of calibration despite it's being accurate seconds before. I've seen CPS discontinue a dangerous drive because the video kept flashing calibration required.
    I've seen them bin an excess alcohol because the suspect had his blood analysed and his came back under when the evidential specimen was over.

    So I do admire your faith in them taking on a speeding charge when the only evidence is from an uncalibrated device.
    • Car 54
    • By Car 54 23rd Oct 19, 2:55 PM
    • 4,674 Posts
    • 2,982 Thanks
    Car 54
    All the in car speed detection equipment fails to work the minute it's out of calibration despite it's being accurate seconds before. I've seen CPS discontinue a dangerous drive because the video kept flashing calibration required.
    I've seen them bin an excess alcohol because the suspect had his blood analysed and his came back under when the evidential specimen was over.

    So I do admire your faith in them taking on a speeding charge when the only evidence is from an uncalibrated device.
    Originally posted by SHAFT
    We donít know itís uncalbrated, we only know that the website says itís out of date. The (uncalbrated!) website is much more likely to be inaccurate than the camera.
    • SHAFT
    • By SHAFT 23rd Oct 19, 3:10 PM
    • 526 Posts
    • 348 Thanks
    SHAFT
    We donít know itís uncalbrated, we only know that the website says itís out of date. The (uncalbrated!) website is much more likely to be inaccurate than the camera.
    Originally posted by Car 54
    I know but thanks anyway.
    • Car 54
    • By Car 54 23rd Oct 19, 3:12 PM
    • 4,674 Posts
    • 2,982 Thanks
    Car 54
    Mind you, having just recently been done at 34 mph! and attending a course, my licence remains clean! Though one guy turned up, thinking he only had to register and walked out. He is now up in front of the beak and is expected to get 6 points and a bigger fine!
    Originally posted by Blackbeard of Perranporth
    Were you really nicked for 34 in a 30? If you have evidence of that you should post it on Pepipoo.com: theyíve been looking for such a case for years.
    Also, what speed was the other guy doing that was low enough for a course but high enough for six points?
    • TooManyPoints
    • By TooManyPoints 23rd Oct 19, 3:19 PM
    • 359 Posts
    • 185 Thanks
    TooManyPoints
    All the in car speed detection equipment fails to work the m
    inute it's out of calibration...

    We're not talking about in-car equipment are we. If those devices stop working when the calibration expires then obviously they cannot be relied upon simply because from what you say they don't even work. Fixed cameras do not stop working when their calibration expires.

    If the OP's husband wants to take your advice and rely on the CPS discontinuing the matter at some point when less expensive disposals are off the table that's his call. Personally the risk of £1,000 plus for a conviction following a trial against £100 for a course or fixed penalty - especially if I knew I had been speeding and that my best chance of avoiding conviction was relying on the matter being discontinued - is not one I'd take.

    Were you really nicked for 34 in a 30?
    I've raised that question many times. I've never seen any paperwork for such an allegation (in the form of a NIP or whatever) but as some participants to this thread may say, "Why would you?"
    Last edited by TooManyPoints; 23-10-2019 at 3:23 PM.
    • Robisere
    • By Robisere 23rd Oct 19, 4:37 PM
    • 2,911 Posts
    • 3,978 Thanks
    Robisere
    Your husband broke the law by driving at a speed above the legal limit for that road. You have been informed over and over here that the defence of an out of date calibration certificate is very unlikely to work and will almost certainly cost more in terms of a fine and points.

    When I received a NIP some years ago, my wife called me an idiot and advised me to pay up. I took her advice. You should follow the same procedure with your husband.
    I think this job really needs
    a much bigger hammer.
    • SHAFT
    • By SHAFT 23rd Oct 19, 4:44 PM
    • 526 Posts
    • 348 Thanks
    SHAFT
    inute it's out of calibration...

    We're not talking about in-car equipment are we. If those devices stop working when the calibration expires then obviously they cannot be relied upon simply because from what you say they don't even work. Fixed cameras do not stop working when their calibration expires.

    If the OP's husband wants to take your advice and rely on the CPS discontinuing the matter at some point when less expensive disposals are off the table that's his call. Personally the risk of £1,000 plus for a conviction following a trial against £100 for a course or fixed penalty - especially if I knew I had been speeding and that my best chance of avoiding conviction was relying on the matter being discontinued - is not one I'd take.


    I've raised that question many times. I've never seen any paperwork for such an allegation (in the form of a NIP or whatever) but as some participants to this thread may say, "Why would you?"
    Originally posted by TooManyPoints
    I thought you were done, have a look at my first post on this thread.

    I do however admire your faith in our CPS if you think they'd run the case if the calibration is out.

    Not a route I'd advise the op to take solely relying on the evidence so far.
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