Suspension of sick pay

Hello
A friend of mine has been on sick leave with stress symptoms. He has provided sick notes and been assessed by Occupational Health as not fit to return to work. He has now received a letter saying that an investigation is being carried out in relation to allegations about the genuineness of his absence due to his social activities. A meeting has been called for 2 weeks time to determine if there are grounds for a disciplinary hearing. It also says that due to the nature of the allegations, sick pay will cease immediately.
This is a public sector employer with thousands of employees. How can pay be suspended on the basis of a yet to be investigated allegation?
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  • Xbigman
    Xbigman Posts: 3,884
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    That is fairly standard if there is enough of an issue to warrant an investigation, which it looks like the two week delay to the meeting is for.
    If it is found your friend is doing anything wrong then they will want all the sick pay they have paid so far back. By suspending sick pay it stops any pay that might need paying back from increasing.



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  • sangie595
    sangie595 Posts: 6,092 Forumite
    It won't be stopped - he will get SSP like any other employee who is so entitled. There are conditions to receipt of occupational sick pay in the public sector, but most people never read them, so they don't realise that sick pay is not an absolute entitlement.

    And most people don't know about this because it very, very rarely happens. I can only think of one other case of this in about 30 years that I can recall - and that is out of a very large number of cases. I hope he's in a union, because this is a very unusual step for an employer to take, and whilst I don't want to make assumptions, I can't think of any employer that would do it EVEN IF they knew someone was taking the proverbial. That would suggest to me that they have incredibly strong evidence. And if they do, then their "sick pay" will be the least of their trouble, as I would expect the employer to be looking at abuse of sick leave, which is gross misconduct.

    And before you say anything, a doctor's fit note is not worth a thing if they have good evidence. Stress can be faked. Easily. I'd guess any regular on these boards could do a professional job of faking it without a second thought if they wanted to. Few employers accuse people of it because it is so hard to prove its being faked, but many employers are definitely now jaded by the "i'm too stressed to work" line, and often don't believe the legitimate people because of the number of the others. But the point is, regardless of what his doctor or OH have said (both of whom base their opinion on what he says because they also can't prove it either way) if the employer had already got to this point, I wouldn't particularly want to see the evidence they have, because it is going to be scary good.

    He isn't one of my members, is he???
  • Nual
    Nual Posts: 179
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    Sorry, don't know who you are referring to re members? He is in Unison. My guess is that the evidence is from FB, which shows holidays and other social activities. Maybe not the smartest thing to show you are having a good time while off sick, but if the stress is due to impossible work pressure then doing things to make you feel less stressed/ forget about work for a bit seems reasonable?
    The allegation bit seems strange to me - can you explain why it is worded like this?
    I used to manage this person and I do not believe he is faking the stress.He had a lot of shortcomings but was hardworking and very keen to do the right thing. Since I left he has been put into an impossible role which does not suit his skill set or personality.
  • GlasweJen
    GlasweJen Posts: 7,451
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    Nual wrote: »
    Sorry, don't know who you are referring to re members? He is in Unison. My guess is that the evidence is from FB, which shows holidays and other social activities. Maybe not the smartest thing to show you are having a good time while off sick, but if the stress is due to impossible work pressure then doing things to make you feel less stressed/ forget about work for a bit seems reasonable?
    The allegation bit seems strange to me - can you explain why it is worded like this?
    I used to manage this person and I do not believe he is faking the stress.He had a lot of shortcomings but was hardworking and very keen to do the right thing. Since I left he has been put into an impossible role which does not suit his skill set or personality.

    It might be reasonable to have a short break away but he should really tell his employer about it and not leave it up to them to discover on Facebook.

    He could sign up for CBT or something that will help long term, a Facebook page full of him partying/comments about being hung over or the usual dross that gets put on Facebook could lead him into a whole host of trouble, especially if he's told occys health that he's a nervous wreck who can't step out his front door.
  • sangie595
    sangie595 Posts: 6,092 Forumite
    Thank God for that - I'm a Unite rep!

    I expected that would be what you said. Facebook strikes again. He's been on holiday? And he applied for leave as you must do before going? No, he didn't, did he? Being off sick does not suspend your contractual terms - if you wish to take holiday you must ask for it just as you otherwise would.

    This won't be a popular view with everyone, but I'm afraid I sort of agree. I know plenty of people who have very genuinely suffered from stress related illness, and maybe an odd "night on the tiles " might help. But what you are describing is holidays (plural) and other so-called activities, and if we are talking about a lot of stuff, which it seems we are, I think that it would be very difficult ( to say nothing of unwise) to be quite so jolly. The public sector has many options - if he's fit enough to be living it up, why can't he do a phased return? I'm afraid he's walked himself into this. But as I said, what concerns me is that what you are describing does happen. Sometimes people get rapped knuckles for not having booked a holiday or otherwise got permission. But stopping occupational sick pay is a huge thing. And not done without an awful lot of forethought. Not even a very senior manager could do this on their own authority. It takes HR involvement, and at a very senior level. So they are deadly serious. They don't believe him. And believe they have good cause not to. If this isn't looking art a potential allegation of gross misconduct, I'd be surprised. It may not go that far - but those are the stakes, of that I am sure.
  • Nual
    Nual Posts: 179
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    Thanks sangie. Actually he says yes he did apply for the annual leave for holidays -which was granted - before he went sick.
    My experience with HR there was that they didn't know their own policies or the legislation. Lots of people redeployed to HR from elsewhere who would pronounce on things as if they made it so by saying so on account of them working for HR. If you kwim.
    Accept it was unwise to show being jolly on FB but really if you are feeling overwhelmed and very stressed wouldn't you maybe want to put out there that you are having a good time doing things ? So people don't feel sorry for you?
    I think you are right about the allegation of gross misconduct. Just not clear how they can stop sick pay when it is still an allegation?
  • milliemonster
    milliemonster Posts: 3,708
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    Er no, if I was off sick with stress I certainly wouldn't be parading having a good time on facebook so people didn't feel sorry for me, in fact it would be a sure fire way for my colleagues to be mightily peed off with me seemingly swinging the lead.

    When will people recognise that work and social media don't mix?
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  • NCC-1707
    NCC-1707 Posts: 348
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    How long have they been sick for and could it be perhaps sick pay is discretionary?
  • TELLIT01
    TELLIT01 Posts: 16,364
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    As sangie has said, they must have very strong evidence indeed to have stopped company sick pay at this time. If your friend has given the impression of being out on the razz all the time then alarm bells will have well and truly started to ring.

    The few people I have know who have been off with genuine stress certainly haven't felt like going out and partying.
  • Nual
    Nual Posts: 179
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    Not partying. Being invited to accompany friends who are doing weekend activities, going home to visit parents, going on a prebooked holiday with child. Trying to hold it all together and be normal.
    Jeez you are a very suspicious bunch!
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