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  • FIRST POST
    • 2018d
    • By 2018d 10th Mar 18, 7:48 AM
    • 35Posts
    • 4Thanks
    2018d
    Is this a polite rejection
    • #1
    • 10th Mar 18, 7:48 AM
    Is this a polite rejection 10th Mar 18 at 7:48 AM
    I re-trained last winter and have been speculatively cold calling companies to find work, even if it is initially unpaid. I had a one minute conversation with one of the 'decision makers' at a highly reputable firm. Below is the correspondence. I don't know what to make of it... is this a very polite rejection? Have I made a complete fool of myself?

    I sent this follow up email one week after the phone conversation in early December where he asked me to send over my resume.

    Hello,


    I sent a speculative enquiry (below)last week regarding an unpaid position.


    I wonder if you had a chance to look over my details.


    Please do advise me of your decision.


    Thanks


    Hi Sophia. Unfortunately we do not have any suitable openings at the current time. I will definitely keep your cv under reference for suitable junior roles in the near future.

    Best, Steve

    In mid-Feb I re-contacted him with this

    Hi Steve. Iím wondering, any Unpaid Junior roles? Anything I can do to better my chances?
    Best
    Sophia

    Response

    We really donít have any positions at the moment Sophia, although I definitely admire your energy. If anything suitable comes along I will certainly be in touch.

    Best,Steve

    I really hope so and look forward to it. Because I have research that I would like to show you then.

    Best wishes Steve

    Sophia



    Is this all just a very polite, time wasting rejection? I have had rejections many, many times in the past but they are usually direct and to the point.eg you need more experience, try again in a few years, we look for xyz qualifications.

    I also included a sample of my work in the initial email. I know that my work is 'competent' for a newbie, as the institute I trained with actually offered me job which I rejected as I did not feel I would progress in a learning environment as I would in a real work situation.

    Im looking for experienced opinions so that I can get some sense of this or closure and move on.
Page 1
    • glentoran99
    • By glentoran99 10th Mar 18, 7:59 AM
    • 5,345 Posts
    • 4,524 Thanks
    glentoran99
    • #2
    • 10th Mar 18, 7:59 AM
    • #2
    • 10th Mar 18, 7:59 AM
    Its a "go away and leave us alone" don't call use we will call you kind of thing
    • Detroit
    • By Detroit 10th Mar 18, 8:34 AM
    • 747 Posts
    • 2,332 Thanks
    Detroit
    • #3
    • 10th Mar 18, 8:34 AM
    • #3
    • 10th Mar 18, 8:34 AM
    I think you should have stopped after the first email, when there was a chance they may have considered you in future.

    Your second email was a step too far and Steve's irritation is starting to show in his response.

    For 'We really don't...' You can interpret as 'Ive TOLD you this, do you not understand/believe me?'

    With your third response I think you may have lost any chance with this company.

    Steve has been very polite and considerate responding to you twice.

    You are coming across as demanding and pushy, and as someone who is unable to accept a response/decision. Unless you're trying to get into a field where this is an asset, I would advise you avoid this in future.

    While it's great to show initiative it's also important to be able to accept what you are told.

    Just to add, I don't see how you can consider this a 'time wasting rejection' given you chose to contact them three times, and they asked nothing of you.
    Last edited by Detroit; 10-03-2018 at 8:36 AM.


    Put your hands up.
    • Ja7188
    • By Ja7188 10th Mar 18, 8:39 AM
    • 171 Posts
    • 178 Thanks
    Ja7188
    • #4
    • 10th Mar 18, 8:39 AM
    • #4
    • 10th Mar 18, 8:39 AM
    Personally I don't think Steve is showing any signs of irritation, but I'd very much suggest that you don't e-mail him (or anyone else at the same company) for a while. I don't think you've damaged your chances yet, but I think you'll do so if you push any more.

    You seem to be very keen on this particular company - is there a reason for this...?
    • Detroit
    • By Detroit 10th Mar 18, 8:52 AM
    • 747 Posts
    • 2,332 Thanks
    Detroit
    • #5
    • 10th Mar 18, 8:52 AM
    • #5
    • 10th Mar 18, 8:52 AM
    Personally I don't think Steve is showing any signs of irritation, but I'd very much suggest that you don't e-mail him (or anyone else at the same company) for a while. I don't think you've damaged your chances yet, but I think you'll do so if you push any more.

    You seem to be very keen on this particular company - is there a reason for this...?
    Originally posted by Ja7188
    Maybe I'm projecting! I just think that if I'd taken the time to speak on the phone with Sophia, answer her email, and tell her I'd be in touch, I'd expect this to be enough.
    I think I'd be concerned to employ someone reluctant to accept what she'd been told in case this carried forward to her behaviour in the job.
    However we're all different.


    Put your hands up.
    • 2018d
    • By 2018d 10th Mar 18, 9:30 AM
    • 35 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    2018d
    • #6
    • 10th Mar 18, 9:30 AM
    • #6
    • 10th Mar 18, 9:30 AM
    Hi thanks for your response. I think of it as 'time wasting' as in my experience companies tend to be upfront because they don't want to be harassed .... usually along the lines of thanks but we look for more experience, you have potential call us back in a few years, we need a strong maths background etc

    To me his email seems to give me hope, its not a yes but not a no. It is the ambiguity that drives me insane as I am someone who prefers direct yes or no
    • Jeems
    • By Jeems 10th Mar 18, 9:35 AM
    • 188 Posts
    • 118 Thanks
    Jeems
    • #7
    • 10th Mar 18, 9:35 AM
    • #7
    • 10th Mar 18, 9:35 AM
    Without knowing your skillset and what the company does its impossible to say for sure, but basically draw a line under it for now and revisit in 6 months if you're still looking for work then.
    • Ja7188
    • By Ja7188 10th Mar 18, 9:37 AM
    • 171 Posts
    • 178 Thanks
    Ja7188
    • #8
    • 10th Mar 18, 9:37 AM
    • #8
    • 10th Mar 18, 9:37 AM
    How is Steve's reply ambiguous? He clearly states that there's nothing for you at the moment but that he'll be in touch as and when something comes up - how could he make it any clearer...?

    It almost sounds like you'd rather have had a flat 'no' rather than the response you've received.
    • Kathy535
    • By Kathy535 10th Mar 18, 9:41 AM
    • 437 Posts
    • 573 Thanks
    Kathy535
    • #9
    • 10th Mar 18, 9:41 AM
    • #9
    • 10th Mar 18, 9:41 AM
    But it is a no. He clearly says !!!8216;Unfortunately we do not have any suitable openings at the current time!!!8216; and !!!8216;We really don!!!8217;t have any positions at the moment!!!8217;. You asked whether they have any positions, they don!!!8217;t. It!!!8217;s possible they might in the future in which case they will contact you.

    Does it help if you think of it as a !!!8216;no, not now!!!8217; answer?

    My advice would be to leave it. You made an impression of someone who is organised and determined, Steve will remember you if a position comes up. There is no need to contact him again, doing so might make him reclassify you as a nuisance and move you into the not suitable box.
    • 2018d
    • By 2018d 10th Mar 18, 9:44 AM
    • 35 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    2018d
    How is Steve's reply ambiguous? He clearly states that there's nothing for you at the moment but that he'll be in touch as and when something comes up - how could he make it any clearer...?

    It almost sounds like you'd rather have had a flat 'no' rather than the response you've received.


    Ja7188, you genuinely have an impressive understanding and ability to read situations. You are 100% correct I would have just preferred an outright No than to be left in limbo
    • Ja7188
    • By Ja7188 10th Mar 18, 9:59 AM
    • 171 Posts
    • 178 Thanks
    Ja7188
    No offence, but if that's your view then I think you're going to struggle to gain employment as you seem not to understand how businesses operate.

    There are all sorts of reasons why a company may be interested in you and your skillset but not be able to progress your application at the present time - they may not have any current vacancies, they may be waiting for positions to be formally signed off, they may have a recruitment freeze (not uncommon at this time of year), there may be some restructuring going on which could impact the positions available - the list goes on. You need to work with their timescales, not the other way round - and I'd very much suggest that you don't continue to take the view that this constitutes leaving you in limbo.

    What will you do if Steve contacts you for interview in a few months' time? I hope you'll accept the offer and not take the view that you're unhappy with them for not interviewing you sooner.
    • Gavin83
    • By Gavin83 10th Mar 18, 10:37 AM
    • 5,166 Posts
    • 8,414 Thanks
    Gavin83
    Look, I'm really not sure what you're expecting. It's not a firm 'no', it's a 'not yet' which is surely better than a no. However from your perspective you need to treat it as a no, continue to look for other roles and expect that you'll never hear from them again. If they contact you in the future it's a bonus.

    I agree with Detroit, I think he sounds irritated and you should have stopped after the first email. It's a fine line between sounding interested and being irritating, knowing this will come with experience.
    • ACG
    • By ACG 10th Mar 18, 10:56 AM
    • 17,040 Posts
    • 8,927 Thanks
    ACG
    Companies can not take you on unpaid - they have to pay the national minimum wage. So you offering to work for free it not helping your chances in any way.

    Aside from that, if you do not value your time, why should anyone else?

    I once had someone ask if they could work for free for me. At the time, I needed some help so it came at the right time (I paid them a legal wage) but as it happened it did not work out. My advice would be to stop asking to work for free.

    As for the reply, who knows what they mean. Chances are they are being polite. You have had some tenacity and followed it up which is nice and I am sure in theory they would keep your details on file. But that is probably the end of the line without you doing their head in.
    I am a Mortgage Adviser
    You should note that this site doesn't check my status as a mortgage adviser, so you need to take my word for it. This signature is here as I follow MSE's Mortgage Adviser Code of Conduct. Any posts on here are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as financial advice.
    • glentoran99
    • By glentoran99 10th Mar 18, 11:02 AM
    • 5,345 Posts
    • 4,524 Thanks
    glentoran99
    Companies can not take you on unpaid - they have to pay the national minimum wage. So you offering to work for free it not helping your chances in any way.

    Aside from that, if you do not value your time, why should anyone else?

    I once had someone ask if they could work for free for me. At the time, I needed some help so it came at the right time (I paid them a legal wage) but as it happened it did not work out. My advice would be to stop asking to work for free.

    As for the reply, who knows what they mean. Chances are they are being polite. You have had some tenacity and followed it up which is nice and I am sure in theory they would keep your details on file. But that is probably the end of the line without you doing their head in.
    Originally posted by ACG


    How do charity shops deal with it? Work experience? etc
    • ACG
    • By ACG 10th Mar 18, 11:11 AM
    • 17,040 Posts
    • 8,927 Thanks
    ACG
    How do charity shops deal with it? Work experience? etc
    Originally posted by glentoran99
    voluntary workers in your organisation are exempt from the minimum wage if both the following apply:
    - you are a charity, voluntary organisation, associated fund-raising body or statutory body
    - you give them no monetary payments and only limited and specified expenses and benefits
    I suppose if our OP is applying to a charity then I am wrong. But I dont know many people who would be chasing up a volunteering job for a charity is saying there is nothing available.
    I am a Mortgage Adviser
    You should note that this site doesn't check my status as a mortgage adviser, so you need to take my word for it. This signature is here as I follow MSE's Mortgage Adviser Code of Conduct. Any posts on here are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as financial advice.
    • Wyndham
    • By Wyndham 10th Mar 18, 11:59 AM
    • 2,021 Posts
    • 2,323 Thanks
    Wyndham
    What's the research you want to show him? That bit is where it crosses the line for me. Up until then I'd call you determined, or tenacious, but offering research - I think you come across as a little creepy. Why would he want to see your research? If you genuinely think he may be interested, you should have said what it was (don't do that now, it's too late). But you also need to be aware that what is important you you may not be important to him.

    I think you should put your encounter onto the 'maybe' pile. It may come to something in the future, it may not. That future could be next week, or well over 12 months away. You just don't know.
    • Smodlet
    • By Smodlet 10th Mar 18, 2:33 PM
    • 3,195 Posts
    • 6,328 Thanks
    Smodlet
    This will probably come across as harsh but you have said you prefer plain speaking. I think, OP, you mistake Steve's politeness for ambiguity. "We'll keep your details on file" is management speak for "Go forth and multiply. If we wanted to see you, we would have invited you for an interview, now leave us alone." Very occasionally they do call back at a time that suits them.

    I think you will improve your chances if you stop coming across as so entitled "Oh, but my research will revolutionise your company/save the world" and just understand that "No" means no, however politely it is worded.

    I trust this is clear enough and genuinely wish you luck in your job search but, unless a vacancy is advertised as an internship, offering to work for nothing comes across as both desperate and creepy. If you value yourself so little, why should anyone want to employ you? Are you not worth a salary? Welcome to the world of work; it is not like university, everyone is not a winner. Apologies if that was too unambiguous.
    What is this life if, sweet wordsmith, we have no time to take the pith?
    Every stew starts with the first onion.
    I took it upon myself to investigate a trifle; it had custard, jelly, soggy sponge things...
    • 2018d
    • By 2018d 10th Mar 18, 2:53 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    2018d
    Your second email was a step too far and Steve's irritation is starting to show in his response.

    For 'We really don't...' You can interpret as 'Ive TOLD you this, do you not understand/believe me?'

    With your third response I think you may have lost any chance with this company.

    Steve has been very polite and considerate responding to you twice.

    You are coming across as demanding and pushy, and as someone who is unable to accept a response/decision.

    I agree with Detroit, I think he sounds irritated and you should have stopped after the first email.



    I honestly don't see how he is 'irritated' with me?
    He didn't have to respond back firstly, and secondly he even said ' I definitely admire your energy'
    I actually took it as a positive !!!???!!
    Last edited by 2018d; 10-03-2018 at 3:11 PM.
    • 2018d
    • By 2018d 10th Mar 18, 2:58 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    2018d
    "Oh, but my research will revolutionise your company/save the world" What's the research you want to show him? That bit is where it crosses the line for me. Up until then I'd call you determined, or tenacious, but offering research - I think you come across as a little creepy. Why would he want to see your research?

    I meant it in the sense that Ive been keeping busy and proactive in the industry in the interim, and it be a good marker of my capabilities and potential if I was interviewed rather than a cv
    • 2018d
    • By 2018d 10th Mar 18, 3:02 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    2018d

    What will you do if Steve contacts you for interview in a few months' time? I hope you'll accept the offer and not take the view that you're unhappy with them for not interviewing you sooner.


    haha its so true, I had been thinking up thanks but no thanks replies when they did finally approach me. I know better now
    Last edited by 2018d; 10-03-2018 at 3:09 PM.
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