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  • FIRST POST
    • Danwj7
    • By Danwj7 11th Dec 17, 11:38 AM
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    Danwj7
    Sleep in confusion
    • #1
    • 11th Dec 17, 11:38 AM
    Sleep in confusion 11th Dec 17 at 11:38 AM
    Good morning, I work for a large care company and have done a number of sleep ins, with the recent news of sleep ins being paid at hourly rate I, like others got quite excited about a bit of extra money. That was until I learned that I wouldn’t be getting an extra penny at all, why? Here’s the interesting and most frustrating part, my hourly rate is £9.35 per hour because I have worked my way up to being a senior support worker (I get it in the neck when things aren’t right), now what my employers have done is evened out all hours worked, including sleep ins between July and November to give staff back pay for sleep ins, which is great unless you’re on a higher rate, as I am, my higher rate has compensated the sleep in money meaning I was only getting NMW for my shift, so me working hard to climb the ladder means nothing! I’ve been persecuted for doing well.
    Is anyone else in the same or similar situation?
    Dan James
Page 1
    • IAmWales
    • By IAmWales 11th Dec 17, 11:55 AM
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    IAmWales
    • #2
    • 11th Dec 17, 11:55 AM
    • #2
    • 11th Dec 17, 11:55 AM
    Lots of people are in the same situation. As long as you're being paid NMW then your employer is not doing anything unlawful.

    You might want to look up the meaning of persecution. You're not being persecuted, to suggest so is quite silly.
    • TELLIT01
    • By TELLIT01 11th Dec 17, 12:12 PM
    • 5,015 Posts
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    TELLIT01
    • #3
    • 11th Dec 17, 12:12 PM
    • #3
    • 11th Dec 17, 12:12 PM
    Penalised rather than persecuted, but I understand your displeasure at the situation. The law only requires that NMW is paid for all hours, not that the persons normal hourly rate is paid.
    • jobbingmusician
    • By jobbingmusician 11th Dec 17, 1:18 PM
    • 19,163 Posts
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    jobbingmusician
    • #4
    • 11th Dec 17, 1:18 PM
    • #4
    • 11th Dec 17, 1:18 PM
    Hold on though. This is the second post like this, and I'm really not sure about what is going on.

    Are you saying 'I had a contract to be paid £x (let's call it £12) per hour which involved me doing sleepins, which were unpaid. My employer has now done a back calculation on these figures and said that what they were ACTUALLY doing was paying me NMW for all the hours including sleep in' ? If so, I suppose this is legal but quite frankly I doubt it, because you are not being paid your contractual pay for your waking hours.

    If your contract is based on a salary (£x a year) you are in a weaker position, since you have been paid that salary which covers sleep ins as well as waking hours. IN which case I understand your frustration (but I also sympathise a bit with your employer, who has had the rules changed retrospectively - where are they supposed to find the money for all these sleep ins from?)

    Which is it, please? Hourly paid or salaried?
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    • marliepanda
    • By marliepanda 11th Dec 17, 1:21 PM
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    marliepanda
    • #5
    • 11th Dec 17, 1:21 PM
    • #5
    • 11th Dec 17, 1:21 PM
    Hold on though. This is the second post like this, and I'm really not sure about what is going on.

    Are you saying 'I had a contract to be paid £x (let's call it £12) per hour which involved me doing sleepins, which were unpaid. My employer has now done a back calculation on these figures and said that what they were ACTUALLY doing was paying me NMW for all the hours including sleep in' ? If so, I suppose this is legal but quite frankly I doubt it, because you are not being paid your contractual pay for your waking hours.

    If your contract is based on a salary (£x a year) you are in a weaker position, since you have been paid that salary which covers sleep ins as well as waking hours. IN which case I understand your frustration (but I also sympathise a bit with your employer, who has had the rules changed retrospectively - where are they supposed to find the money for all these sleep ins from?)

    Which is it, please? Hourly paid or salaried?
    Originally posted by jobbingmusician
    The law is that sleep ins cannot mean that an employee is being paid below minimum wage, as previous flat rates of say £30 for 8 hours sleep isnt Minimum wage.

    It doesnt take into account your contracted wage and hours
    • jobbingmusician
    • By jobbingmusician 11th Dec 17, 1:28 PM
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    jobbingmusician
    • #6
    • 11th Dec 17, 1:28 PM
    • #6
    • 11th Dec 17, 1:28 PM
    Yes, I completely understand that. It doesn't relate in any way to my post though. Your second sentence doesn't relate to the OP's post, as clearly her back pay arrangements ARE taking into account her contracted wage.
    I'm the Board Guide on the Matched Betting; Referrers and Jobseeking & Training boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge posts there. Board guides are not moderators and don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com.

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    • marliepanda
    • By marliepanda 11th Dec 17, 1:48 PM
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    marliepanda
    • #7
    • 11th Dec 17, 1:48 PM
    • #7
    • 11th Dec 17, 1:48 PM
    Yes, I completely understand that. It doesn't relate in any way to my post though. Your second sentence doesn't relate to the OP's post, as clearly her back pay arrangements ARE taking into account her contracted wage.
    Originally posted by jobbingmusician
    Yes. Her wage means that she is being paid minimum wage for every hour she works, regardless of how that ends up.

    The law isnt 'contracted wage for daytime hours and then at least minimum for sleep overs' its 'minimum wage for any hours you work.
    • lincroft1710
    • By lincroft1710 11th Dec 17, 3:25 PM
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    lincroft1710
    • #8
    • 11th Dec 17, 3:25 PM
    • #8
    • 11th Dec 17, 3:25 PM
    Dan, suggest you remove your name from your post
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 11th Dec 17, 3:58 PM
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    getmore4less
    • #9
    • 11th Dec 17, 3:58 PM
    • #9
    • 11th Dec 17, 3:58 PM
    Don't NMW calculations need to be done on a pay period and not longer term?
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 12th Dec 17, 2:28 AM
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    Savvy_Sue
    It's definitely not persecution because it is happening all over the sector.

    If not already in a union, join now, and work with them to see if sleep-in rates can be improved for senior staff.
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    • ampersand
    • By ampersand 12th Dec 17, 2:44 AM
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    ampersand
    As SS says, join a Union and also advise your MP.

    It doesn't matter whether or not you voted for this person, or at all(though you should).
    An MP represents each and every one of her or his constituents.

    MPs NEED to know of any tactic, possibly widespread, of employers' illegal practice.
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    • mac.d
    • By mac.d 12th Dec 17, 2:18 PM
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    mac.d
    It's not illegal practice though is it? Most care organisations are still in the process of trying to fund the paying of sleep-ins at an hourly rate instead of the previously used one-off payment, and, at the moment they are only doing what is needed to comply with the law.

    The 'solutions' probably vary between different organisations, and unfortunately in some cases, those on a higher rate of pay, don't get any benefit from the changes, while those on a lower rate do. I have heard a mention of people signing new contracts and effectively having two parts to the sleep-in period, one paid and one done free - that sounds quite alarming.

    However, not as alarming as the people being supported by care workers losing sleep-ins altogether, having to get used to assisted technology, or being moved to other houses etc. As usual, the people who really suffer, are those who are getting cared for.
    • matttye
    • By matttye 14th Dec 17, 7:52 AM
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    matttye
    If your contract says you are paid £xx and they are paying you less than that, then depending on the wording of your contract they could be in breach of contract.

    Don't see how they can retrospectively and unilaterally change that.
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    • marliepanda
    • By marliepanda 14th Dec 17, 8:56 AM
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    marliepanda
    If your contract says you are paid £xx and they are paying you less than that, then depending on the wording of your contract they could be in breach of contract.

    Don't see how they can retrospectively and unilaterally change that.
    Originally posted by matttye
    They are not though. Her contract probably states something like £9 p/h plus £30 for a sleep in. That is what she agreed to and was happy to work.

    The government have decided that the sleep ins cannot take people down to less than minimum wage (NOT their contracted wage, the govt don't care or have say in that)

    In the OP's case, it does not. They haven't done anything with her contract. They never agreed to pay her £9 an hour on her sleep ins.

    My friend does sleep ins, for the vast majority of the time with his service user, he is asleep. If he does get woken and has to 'work' then he is paid hourly for that work. Care companies aren't rolling in money anyway, if they have to start paying supervisors extra money to sleep, they either will remove the service, remove those shifts for supervisors or pass those costs on to the service users which are already high...
    • spadoosh
    • By spadoosh 14th Dec 17, 9:29 AM
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    spadoosh
    I cant seem much happening from this. The government have messed things up big time.

    You had a contract with your employer, one which most people seem to have been happy with. The government have decided to change rules and backdate it. Thousands of companies are now finding the costing models they used are screwed up and are now finding any profits being wiped out by back pay.

    Im aware contracts are legally binding but i dont know how applicable that could be to laws changed retrospectively. As i said businesses will have used the costings at the time to plan the finances for the business. Getting them to backdate pay can and has wiped out any profits and many businesses will be on the brink of collapse due to this.

    It would be a bit like saying card transaction fees are unfair and making Visa backdate and refund any charges. Great news for the recipients until Visa doesnt have enough money to pay for all the refunds, goes bust and everyone loses.

    Its very poorly thought out. The government have risked businesses it needs to rely on because theyve changed something theyve always been aware of.

    I sympathise with you OP, but i also sympathise with your employer.
    Don't be angry!
    • trigger fish
    • By trigger fish 14th Dec 17, 9:42 AM
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    trigger fish
    With these type of jobs I thought the sleepover money was a bonus on top of NMW or wage rate.
    • trigger fish
    • By trigger fish 14th Dec 17, 9:48 AM
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    trigger fish
    My friend does sleep ins, for the vast majority of the time with his service user, he is asleep. If he does get woken and has to 'work' then he is paid hourly for that work.
    Originally posted by marliepanda
    If I'm reading this right if your friend's client doesn't wake up then he only gets the sleepover money.
    • marliepanda
    • By marliepanda 14th Dec 17, 9:55 AM
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    marliepanda
    With these type of jobs I thought the sleepover money was a bonus on top of NMW or wage rate.
    Originally posted by trigger fish
    No its a flat rate for the sleep.

    Most of the time it is just sleeping and being there 'just in case' Like I said my friend would get £30 to sleep for 8 hours say, but if he was having to work during the night he would get his hourly rate. Otherwise he is just being paid to be asleep.
    • marliepanda
    • By marliepanda 14th Dec 17, 9:56 AM
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    marliepanda
    If I'm reading this right if your friend's client doesn't wake up then he only gets the sleepover money.
    Originally posted by trigger fish
    Yes, he would be paid £30 to 'sleep' but this also wasn't part of his contracted hours, so it was a nice bonus to him, so 40 hours at NMW or whatever, plus £30 everytime he slept over.

    Now his company cannot afford that additionally, so now he gets 40hours at NMW which includes any sleep overs, so actually he is earning less money.
    • breakinthesun
    • By breakinthesun 14th Dec 17, 3:51 PM
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    breakinthesun
    Bring an unlawful deduction from wages claim on the following basis:

    Your contract says that you earn £9/hour + £30/sleep in.

    NMW regulations state that you cannot be paid less than £7.50 an hour. For the £30/sleep in to be legally compliant, terms will need to be implied into it. What the other posters are suggesting is that the terms that are implied will be : you are paid £xx for every hour worked, where x = hourly rate when you total your weekly sum divided by total hours (which will be <£9 but likely more than £7.50).

    What you could seek to argue instead is that what should be implied into your contract is that you are paid £9/hour for every hour worked. I am not sure where you stand on whether that argument has found much success, but it's one route you could explore.
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