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    Former MSE Lawrence
    MONEY MORAL DILEMMA: Should Anne put the animals down?
    • #1
    • 6th Apr 10, 7:24 PM
    MONEY MORAL DILEMMA: Should Anne put the animals down? 6th Apr 10 at 7:24 PM
    Here's this week's hypothetical situation for you to cogitate on:

    Should Anne put the animals down?

    Anne's always been an animal lover and over the years has acquired many strays. She's got a pony, two goats, four dogs, three cats and a hamster - many getting on in years and with medical problems. A year ago she lost her job - her savings have gone, and she's struggling to keep her home. Her biggest cost is the animals' welfare & food. Nobody wants to take them.

    Click reply to have your say

    Previous MMDs: View All



    Update Note From Martin

    A quick response on the "this shouldn't be discussed its not appropriate" notes a few have listed.

    This is a more common situation than you think it originates from a similar (though no identical) question posed to me about what the options were for pets when the money had run out.

    In the past I once did a money makeover on a woman who's was massively overspending due to her animals and causing financial problems. As some in the thread have said they have been put in severe debt due to animal costs.

    Just because the consequences of this aren't nice - doesn't mean we don't need think how to deal with it.

    Being open to debate is important

    This is a pure money moral dilemma - putting animals down is not illegal. Financially not having the animals adds up, yet is it morally acceptible. It's a moral v a money situation - exactly the type of MMD many people need face.

    We live in a meat eating society - animals are killed for food all the time - the moral difference between that and putting an animal down so someone can afford to eat - is a relatively fine line. Different people draw conclusions on both sides of it. It's also worth noting at some point if she loses her home and is declared bankrupt the animals may be homesless and without food too.

    Of course its to be hoped sancturies and animal welfare charities would take the animals - indeed she is very obviously an animal lover as are many - and no one wants to think of animals suffering - and it will cause great emotion to get rid of them. Yet I've heard reports that especially old and sick animals can't always be catered for (though have no empirical evidence).

    Would it be different if it were a farmer who had livestock that couldn't sell and thus his choice was to cull them in order to cut costs?

    Why debate it?

    The point of the MMD is to make people think - to come up with a situation where different people will have opposing views and learn from each other.

    Hopefully anyone in a similar position will be able to learn from the tips, solutions and options given above.

    Please lets try and have a sensible rational debate about what some people face as a real economic and ethical reality.

    Martin

    PS Some animal shelters to help anyone in this position provided by people in this thread.

    DOGS

    Founded in 1891, Dogs Trust (formerly the National Canine Defence League) is the largest dog welfare charity in the UK. Our mission is to bring about the day when all dogs can enjoy a happy life, free from the threat of unnecessary destruction.
    http://www.dogstrust.org.uk/rehoming...s/default.aspx

    CATS

    Helping the Harder to Home Cats ('Top Cats' section) - Most rescues find they have a few cats that always seem to be overlooked, and often stay in care for months or even years. They may be elderly, have a medical condition, be very shy, or are simply passed by in favour of prettier or younger cats. Rescues can feature any 'harder to home' cats on our Top Cats section. This section has been very successful in finding new homes for many cats, some of whom had almost given up hope.
    http://www.catchat.org/adoption/index.html

    RODENTS

    Special notice should be given to Paws Here in Edinburgh - I support and regularly donate to this shelter and I take in their elderly rats when I can.
    http://www.animalrescuers.co.uk/html/rabferr.html

    FARM ANIMALS

    I am less familiar with farm animals but I have these links which may help:

    http://www.farmanimalrescue.org.uk/f...ry-history.htm
    Middlesex

    http://www.thefarmanimalsanctuary.co.uk/
    Worcestershire

    http://www.animalrescuers.co.uk/html/farm.html
    UK

    This site in general is really good for around the country shelters:
    http://www.animalrescuers.co.uk/





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    Last edited by MSE Martin; 08-04-2010 at 9:22 PM.
Page 8
    • aliasojo
    • By aliasojo 7th Apr 10, 5:25 PM
    • 22,264 Posts
    • 48,387 Thanks
    aliasojo
    You can call me Cindy if you like I shall not take offence


    Originally posted by Clive Woody
    That made me smile.
    Herman - MP for all!
    • Clive Woody
    • By Clive Woody 7th Apr 10, 5:26 PM
    • 4,935 Posts
    • 5,515 Thanks
    Clive Woody
    Clive Woody You are sick and uncompassionate.
    Originally posted by cindyted
    I am in very good health thank you.

    You suggest I am lacking in compassion because I dare point out there are two sides to the discussion.

    Can I suggest you get a grip my dear.

    "We act as though comfort and luxury are the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about” – Albert Einstein
  • petraandcedismum
    No. You should not.
    • Clive Woody
    • By Clive Woody 7th Apr 10, 5:28 PM
    • 4,935 Posts
    • 5,515 Thanks
    Clive Woody
    That made me smile.
    Originally posted by aliasojo
    Just do not ask for pictures of me in a dress and high heels....not a pretty sight!!!

    "We act as though comfort and luxury are the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about” – Albert Einstein
    • Enchantica
    • By Enchantica 7th Apr 10, 5:28 PM
    • 548 Posts
    • 1,308 Thanks
    Enchantica
    As far as I'm aware it costs alot to get the animals put down so you should put a towel over their heads and hit them with a hammer.
    Originally posted by markob
    Ugly comments... as predicted. Wow look at that, who would have expected that.
  • cindyted
    Ah, I see your edit. I understand now. Sorry.
    Originally posted by aliasojo
    Its OK. Its the first time I have done a blog, so its a bit new to me, so apologies for the mistake, hopefully next time I will get it right.
    • lorne57
    • By lorne57 7th Apr 10, 5:32 PM
    • 68 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    lorne57
    I would love to know where all these animal sanctuaries are that everyone seems to think exists.
    My daughter and s-i-law had a dog from the nearest dogs home a few years ago – it was against our wishes as at the time they lived in a flat. I believe my daughter was in tears as she went round the dogs home. They came home with a Staffie (no checks made to see if they had suitable conditions for the dog to live in).
    They now live in a house with a garden so better conditions for her.
    But who pays for her yearly jab - mum and dad.
    Who paid for the spaying - mum and dad
    Who pays the vets bill whenever she goes (usually at least £20 a time) - mum and dad
    The last big bill was over £500!!
    So if mum and dad weren’t around who is going to pay these bills? There isn’t much money coming into their household and they aren’t on any benefits so no free vets bills. So do we ask them to take her back where she came from as they are not financially able to look after her!!
    Of course we wouldn’t – she is part of the family and always will be and I don’t think my hubby would allow her to be taken back now!
    But do any of you contribute to any of the animal charities – its okay saying there are plenty of them to take the animals in – but without people’s support they won’t be there to look after them.
    So when granny leaves the inheritance to the local dogs home don’t moan about it!!!
    • Enchantica
    • By Enchantica 7th Apr 10, 5:33 PM
    • 548 Posts
    • 1,308 Thanks
    Enchantica
    I am now working on my list of contacts for shelters over the UK so that if anyone is in this situation then they will be able to do the right thing.
    • pixie__girlie
    • By pixie__girlie 7th Apr 10, 5:33 PM
    • 375 Posts
    • 4,553 Thanks
    pixie__girlie
    absolutely not, you should never put a healthy animal down.
    • No Future
    • By No Future 7th Apr 10, 5:35 PM
    • 329 Posts
    • 213 Thanks
    No Future
    Glad to see a MMD with some more serious ethical debate.
    Just surprised people are unable to debate rationally, withtout getting emotional.
    • lorne57
    • By lorne57 7th Apr 10, 5:36 PM
    • 68 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    lorne57
    Also please note from Martin's opening post

    She's got a pony, two goats, four dogs, three cats and a hamster - many getting on in years and with medical problems

    where in the opening post did it say the animals were healthy?
  • cindyted
    I am in very good health thank you.

    You suggest I am lacking in compassion because I dare point out there are two sides to the discussion.

    Can I suggest you get a grip my dear.

    Originally posted by Clive Woody
    I do not thing the term 'chop them up' is particularly a nice term, and I am sure could have been put in a more sympathetic manner. I agree there a two sides to this discussion. You are are obviously passionate about your Rugby, I am passionate about animals. As for getting a grip, dont patronise me.
    • Enchantica
    • By Enchantica 7th Apr 10, 5:47 PM
    • 548 Posts
    • 1,308 Thanks
    Enchantica
    DOGS

    Founded in 1891, Dogs Trust (formerly the National Canine Defence League) is the largest dog welfare charity in the UK. Our mission is to bring about the day when all dogs can enjoy a happy life, free from the threat of unnecessary destruction.
    http://www.dogstrust.org.uk/rehoming/searchcentres/default.aspx

    CATS

    Helping the Harder to Home Cats ('Top Cats' section) - Most rescues find they have a few cats that always seem to be overlooked, and often stay in care for months or even years. They may be elderly, have a medical condition, be very shy, or are simply passed by in favour of prettier or younger cats. Rescues can feature any 'harder to home' cats on our Top Cats section. This section has been very successful in finding new homes for many cats, some of whom had almost given up hope.
    http://www.catchat.org/adoption/index.html

    RODENTS

    Special notice should be given to Paws Here in Edinburgh - I support and regularly donate to this shelter and I take in their elderly rats when I can.
    http://www.animalrescuers.co.uk/html/rabferr.html

    FARM ANIMALS

    I am less familiar with farm animals but I have these links which may help:

    http://www.farmanimalrescue.org.uk/farm-animal-rescue-sanctuary-history.htm
    Middlesex

    http://www.thefarmanimalsanctuary.co.uk/
    Worcestershire

    http://www.animalrescuers.co.uk/html/farm.html
    UK

    This site in general is really good for around the country shelters:
    http://www.animalrescuers.co.uk/
    Last edited by Enchantica; 07-04-2010 at 5:56 PM.
    • neilpost
    • By neilpost 7th Apr 10, 5:51 PM
    • 53 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    neilpost
    His reply was

    "We find these cases a bit of a dilemma. An ethical stance would be to rehome the dog through one of the charities and generally we would advice people to do this. However, if the owner insists on the dog being put to sleep then from a legal point of view we have to abid what the owner decides as the dog is considered a chattel or property. If we do any action that the owner has not consented to then it is considered as trespass and we could be arrested and charged as such. I give the owner the options and the pros and cons and leave the decision up to them. If they decide euthanasia is action they want to take then I will euthanase the animal. There was one case of a vet who said he would euthanase a dobermann but rehomed it where upon the original owners saw the "deceased" dobermann. He was struck off and not allowed to practice for 2 years."
    Originally posted by Munkee2
    Last time I had an animal put down (Cat with Cat Flu), there was no Vet's dilema (ethical or otherwise), about the £160 they releived me of....
    • Enchantica
    • By Enchantica 7th Apr 10, 5:55 PM
    • 548 Posts
    • 1,308 Thanks
    Enchantica
    Last time I had an animal put down (Cat with Cat Flu), there was no Vet's dilema (ethical or otherwise), about the £160 they releived me of....
    Originally posted by neilpost
    They charged you £160 for cat euthanasia??
  • gone4gold62
    maybe she needs to take the decision to stop any expensive medical care and let them pass away naturally
    Originally posted by tobiascurious
    but if they are requiring medical care surely to stop it could maybe be considered cruel??
    • kutsu119
    • By kutsu119 7th Apr 10, 6:04 PM
    • 156 Posts
    • 202 Thanks
    kutsu119
    Eat them. They're animals - cheap chicken, cheap dogs, all the same.
    • Enchantica
    • By Enchantica 7th Apr 10, 6:05 PM
    • 548 Posts
    • 1,308 Thanks
    Enchantica
    Eat them. They're animals - cheap chicken, cheap dogs, all the same.
    Originally posted by kutsu119
    Amazing how many trolls are attracted to these kinds of threads.
    • Enchantica
    • By Enchantica 7th Apr 10, 6:06 PM
    • 548 Posts
    • 1,308 Thanks
    Enchantica
    but if they are requiring medical care surely to stop it could maybe be considered cruel??
    Originally posted by gone4gold62
    Yes stopping medication would be cruel. Shelter.
    • pippitypip
    • By pippitypip 7th Apr 10, 6:55 PM
    • 962 Posts
    • 1,476 Thanks
    pippitypip
    Also please note from Martin's opening post

    She's got a pony, two goats, four dogs, three cats and a hamster - many getting on in years and with medical problems

    where in the opening post did it say the animals were healthy?
    Originally posted by lorne57
    Many getting on in years and with medical problems, equally does not mean some are not young and in full health.

    Medical problems doesn't necessarily mean high cost either, and neither does getting on in years. Obviously the costs full stop are too much for Anne to deal with, without a job, however that doesn't also necessarily mean they're costing her thousands in vets fees either and costs may be perfectly manageable by others.

    My main point is, where there's a will, there's a way. If you've taken on responsibility for an animal's welfare, you should indeed be responsible for their welfare. e.g. a dog's for life, not just for when you have some spare cash etc etc

    To me, the getting rid option just smacks of what's wrong with today's society - no-one taking ownership of anything and responsibility ends when things get a bit tough.

    If you have an animal that you can no longer care for, I don't think it's too much to ask you to do some research about your options in re-homing or find out what help there is out there. I think as a pet owner you OWE that to the animals you're responsible for, or you shouldn't be a pet owner at all in the first place.

    pippitypip
    I know I'm in my own little world, but it's ok - they know me here!
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