High Gas & Electricity Help

diydad · 17 February 2019 at 12:58AM

Hi folks, first question here so would appreciate any help whatsoever.

So my wife and I purchased our first home which is a 5 bedroom house which has underfloor heating throughout and I believe our gas boiler provides our hot water and nothing else.

At the start our bills were very cheap less than £100 and gradually year on year they have gone up, now at almost £180. I understand prices change and the time of year varies with consumption etc.. but the costs seem very high.

This leads me to my question my boiler is in the garage which is a double garage attached to the house. The walls are insulated very well and there is no insulation in the roof of the garage only. As the boiler is in the garage depending on the time of year it gets very very cold, currently at around 9 degrees Celsius. As it’s so cold does this have any effect on how much gas is used? I do have a infrared heater bar now (20p per hour from my tests) and for obvious reasons I clearly don’t want this on permanently.

I have asked a few plumbers to install a gas radiator but each one has said it’s not worth the hassle as the boiler and the hot water tank are so far apart (water tank upstairs on the other side of the house in a bathroom cupboard) that if if the gas radiator was installed it would not stay on long enough to be of any benefit and all have reccomended electric ones which all cost a lot to purchase yet alone the running costs.

I will be getting the loft insulated (not too sure why the builder failed to do this). Any help if the boiler uses more gas when it’s cold would be great. Currently have the boiler to come on in the morning (for shower) for about 2 hours and then once again in the evening for about 2 hours and that’s it. I feel as though there is a problem somewhere along the line but have failed to find it.

Any help and/or advice for the above would be greatly appreciated.

diydad · 17 February 2019 at 12:59AM

Forgot to mention for the year our electricity is at 6000kwh and gas is around 23000kwh if that’s any help.

Neil49 · 17 February 2019 at 1:28AM

I presume the £180 is per month but what is the breakdown between gas and electricity. I'm also amazed that you are using 23000 kwh just to heat your water.

I've just looked at my power consumption for the last year which is a modern 4 bed detached house with gas central heating and a separate hot water tank heated by the same boiler. Gas consumption was just over 11,000 kwh for the year yet you are using twice as much just to heat your water tank!

How old is the boiler and is the hot water tank insulated? If your loft isn't insulated then I assume your hot water tank either has none or a basic thin sleeve covering it. This should be fixed. Additionally, if the pipes from the boiler are exposed within the garage then you could insulate those to help minimise the heat loss between boiler and tank.

Robin9 · 17 February 2019 at 6:00AM

diydad wrote: »

....................... a 5 bedroom house which has underfloor heating throughout and I believe our gas boiler provides our hot water and nothing else..................

and from your other post ...........6000 kwh electricity and 23000 kwh gas ...................

Something not quite right here. More details of your central heating please. Underfloor is generally on the ground floor only and is electric. In which case how is the top floor heated.

6000 is low for an electrically heated (5 bed) house but highish if its for sundry domestic use.

23000 for a wet system - radiators on walls and perhaps underfloor on the ground floor - could well be correct. The long pipe runs do not help. The temp in the garage is not an issue.

I had my boiler in my garage and relocated it into my attic - is that an option.

macman · 17 February 2019 at 8:50AM

You have been in the house for how long, and the loft remains uninsulated? That's your first remedy, half a day's work.
The boiler being in the garage is not a major factor, since it's driven by the programmer/thermostat, which are in the house. However most modern boilers have a frost 'stat fitted, which would kick in around 10C.
Your kWh usage makes no sense, as if you really have dry UFH throughout, then your gas would be much lower and your leccy much higher. I suspect you actually have wet UHF, driven off the boiler? It would be daft to install a gas boiler just to provide the DHW.
In order to reduce your costs, you need to understand the system you already have. How is the UFH controlled? Do you really have UFH upstairs as well? Do you cook with gas? Make and model of your boiler and programmer?

Robin9 · 17 February 2019 at 9:26AM

diydad wrote: »

......................
I will be getting the loft insulated (not too sure why the builder failed to do this). ...............

Further to macman's comment - how old is the house ? I think loft insulation has been a requirement of some form since the 1960's - initially 25mm now 300 mm ?

matelodave · 17 February 2019 at 9:37AM

First you need to insulate - your loft with 300mm of insulation, your pipework in the garage and also the hot water tank.

You also need to understand your system and how its controlled - where are your thermostats, what do they control. Has the hot water tank got a stat or does it rely on the boiler temperature
Have you got one for the underfllor and one for the radiators. Have you got any motorised valves.What settings are the clock(s) and stats. A programmable stat or two might give you more control over time and temperature if your system is zoned.

Do you really need four hours a day of hot water - try just heating in the morning (or evening, depending on when you do your main ablutions) and see it it lasts all day until the next heating time. A decently lagged tank should hold enough hot water for 24 hours unless you are profligate with the water. We heat our tank once a day and there's plenty for both of us to have two showers a day if we want to.

Take shorter showers (5 mins max),fit an eco shower head or flow restrictor to reduce your hot water consumption. Dont waste hot water by running it down the sink. Rinse stuff (including your hands) in cold water. Running off a gallon or so of cold until the hot comes through leaves a gallon or so of valuable hot water sitting in the pipes getting cold.

Is your underfloor system hot water or electric. Most u'f systems are buried in the concrete and work a bit like storage heaters so turning them on and off for a couple of hours a day will mean that they will heat continuously during the on period trying to warm up and dissipate the heat when the system is turned off so you might need to assess a better way to use it it. Try reducing the flow temperature and running it a bit longer

You could also try reading your meters a bit more freqently so you've got a better idea of when you are using your energy and what is consuming it and you can see what effect tweaking the controls has on your consumption.

6000kwh a year for leccy sounds pretty high for a place with gas central heating although the gas is high as well but a lot could be explained by your lack of insulation.

I am all electric (heating, lighting, cooking etc), at home all day with the heating on and use just 7000kwh of leccy

grumpycrab · 17 February 2019 at 1:37PM

Usage is feasible for a 5-bed. Underfloor heating is surely water fed? But as you've been in for years, you must know which...

molerat · 17 February 2019 at 2:12PM

Not reading OP correctly

The walls are insulated very well and there is no insulation in the roof of the garage only.

The garage temperature is not really a problem as long as there is not too much uninsulated hot water piping in there. I wouldn't bother with the electric heater, just wasting electric.

I will be getting the loft insulated (not too sure why the builder failed to do this)

Because building regs did not compel them to.

You really need to get a grip on where that electricity is going. Just under twice the national average for a non electric heated property. Teenagers in the house ? They are a huge drain on energy - my bills dropped considerably when we managed to get shot of them

23000 for gas is quite possible in a 5 bed with underfloor heating, you just need to get a handle on when and where it is going. Reading the meter daily and maybe multiple times a day may help you to understand.

diydad · 17 February 2019 at 11:43PM

Hi everyone, thanks for all your reponses.

It seems clear lagging is a must.

I will do my best to answer as many questions as possible in one reply:

1) My home does have underfloor heating throughout my home. I have a manifold downstairs to control downstairs and another manifold upstairs to control the upstairs - both are WUNDA Underfloor Heating. I have individual thermostats in every room. The system is classed as a Wet system.

2) Boiler is a Bosch Greenstar 40CDI Classic Regular and the dial is set to 4

3) I have an Unvented Indirect Cylinder 210 Litres (Center Store brand) which is in my main bathroom in the cupboard which has no additional lagging around it.

4) I have the water on for approx 4 hours as my wife and I and our two babies all need to use it. We have noticed that after both of us has had a shower (less 8 mins each) the hot water temperature decreased significantly and the hot water never stays hot for long hence why I have programmed the timer to come on again for the evening kid's baths.

5) In the loft space above the garage, there is a storage tank (although I have not opened this up)

6) All pipes in the garage are insulated as well as the ones which lead into the loft space.

7) According to OVO Energy (previous supplier for both Electricity & Gas) for March 2018-Feb 2019 my electricity is: 5,426.1KWH (£754.91) and gas is 22,581.2KWS (£696.01).

8) My hob & fan is both electric Neff appliances.

9) I have a Gas fire in my living room which has hardly been at all.

10) I have 3 wall radiators in my 3 bathrooms for the towels.

I will be getting the loft space above the garage sorted out asap with insulation.

I hope this helps, and any advice is helpful.

Robin9 · 18 February 2019 at 8:38AM

diydad wrote: »

......................According to OVO Energy (previous supplier for both Electricity & Gas) for March 2018-Feb 2019 my electricity is: 5,426.1KWH (£754.91) and gas is 22,581.2KWS (£696.01)...............

Thats £120 a month . Even assuming electric and gas have gone up 20% that would be £144. Where has the £180 come from ?

Is is the bill for the last month - then that's fine as it will be balanced by a summer month of under £100

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