Electric cars

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  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,754 Forumite
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    Arklight wrote: »
    I think he's at the other end of the country while you're on your 3rd recharge point.

    Or he/she is in the bank arranging an overdraft extension.

    300 miles @ 20mpg = ~£75

    300 miles @ 3miles/kWh (7p/kWh E7) = £7
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • gzoom
    gzoom Posts: 530 Forumite
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    edited 6 July 2018 at 3:53PM
    Arklight wrote: »
    I'm not unimpressed, but realistically, how far can the Ferrari owner go on his tank of fuel and how long does he need to stop for to refill it?

    I think he's at the other end of the country while you're on your 3rd recharge point.

    The battery warranty is impressive, but what does it cover? According to this if it drops below 70% then you get a replacement.

    https://forums.tesla.com/en_GB/forum/forums/battery-warranty-model-s

    70%? A car with a notional range of 300 miles on a flat road and constant speed without the heater or air con on, dropping to just over 200 under the same conditions is just wear and tear?



    At sub 10mpg with a 18gallon tank range is probably similar, difference been it costs me <£5 to refuel versus £100. But the reality is hardly another drives 200 miles+ on UK roads in one go regularly, and if you do you have my sympathies. I did a one day from Leicester to Leeds recently on paper it wasn't far, 230 miles all it, spent nearly 4hr 30min that day on the roads - the car arrived home with 7% charge but that really is about as far as I want to drive these days with a 2 year old.


    Looked at going to GoodWoodFestival of speed next week as have a day off at work on Thursday, 'only' 160 miles each way - but over 6hrs of driving according to Google, forget that, going to stay home instead. Its nothing to do with range/charging, more to do with the fact by the time I dropped my daughter off at nursery, driven down to GoodWood, I'll have a max of 2hrs to look round before driving back up to do pick up, or I could take my daughter, 6hrs+ in a car with a 2 year old...... :(.


    As for actual battery degradation, Tesla cells are a totally different animal from the cells in your phone/laptop. In the lab most Li-ion cells show noticeable degradation after 500 cycles - so roughly 2 years of use if you charge up every day. Tesla cells in the same lab setting shows less degradation after 3000 cycles and at higher discharge rates!!! (but as we all know all Li-ion cells are the same ;)).


    26515265568_9c5e2be197_b.jpg


    40386449501_4c57738dba_b.jpg


    In real life that equates to 600,000 miles use before dropping to 80% SOC assuming 200 miles per 100-0% discharge, the battery pack in these cars will out last the rest of the car!!!


    This is now been shown in real life data, where after the initial 5% drop at 50K mark there is very minimal degradation. Yes there is other 'future' battery tech coming but they are 10-20 years away from production, Li-ion tech is already good enough for 95% of the car owning public.


    https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/


    Ultimately it comes down to the car buying public, I'm lucky enough to be able to afford any number of very nice combustion cars, and have owned very very good combustion cars in the past. But ever since trying my first EV (a Nissan Leaf) I haven't wanted to own/drive any thing else but EVs.


    The biggest barriers to EVs is still price, you need to be able to spend £60k+ on a car at the moment to get into something with the range/speed of a Tesla/iPace/eTron. But that is changing, Hyundai are bringing out the Kona at £30K for 200 miles of real world range, Tesla Model 3 at similar price/range is about 12-18 months away from the UK, and VAG will be bringing out their ID concept EVs to production soon.


    This review of the iPace sums it up well, Jaguars first EV isn't simply a good car, it's the best Jaguar you can buy right now. If your interested at all in cars this is a really exciting time to be alive, we're going through the biggest change in personal transportation in over a century, really exciting times ahead :).


    https://youtu.be/FILPOpickH4
  • AdrianC
    AdrianC Posts: 42,189 Forumite
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    gzoom wrote: »
    But the reality is hardly another drives 200 miles+ on UK roads in one go regularly
    You may not. But extrapolation is not a great ploy in general.



    And, unless there's a guarantee of decent-rate destination charging, we're talking about 100 miles each way, 200 mile round trip.

    and if you do you have my sympathies. I did a one day from Leicester to Leeds recently on paper it wasn't far, 230 miles all it, spent nearly 4hr 30min that day on the roads - the car arrived home with 7% charge but that really is about as far as I want to drive these days with a 2 year old.
    A 2yo? You have my sympathies... I wouldn't want to go down the road and back with a 2yo in the car.
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,754 Forumite
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    AdrianC wrote: »
    A 2yo? You have my sympathies... I wouldn't want to go down the road and back with a 2yo in the car.

    I suspect the feeling would be mutual. ;)

    [I apologise, but it was just too good an opportunity to waste. All the best. M.]
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • NigeWick
    NigeWick Posts: 2,714 Forumite
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    Martyn1981 wrote: »
    Or he/she is in the bank arranging an overdraft extension.

    300 miles @ 20mpg = ~£75

    300 miles @ 3miles/kWh (7p/kWh E7) = £7
    Drove 270 miles this week. Total cost £2 for parking while I used a Polar 3.6kW post at a hospital.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
  • AdrianC
    AdrianC Posts: 42,189 Forumite
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    It must be lovely to have everybody else subsidise your transport choices. Completely unsustainable, of course.
  • Gloomendoom
    Gloomendoom Posts: 16,550 Forumite
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    Is the average recent model Ferrari owner really that bothered about the cost of getting from A to B? I doubt they bought the car simply for its acceleration either.
  • Gloomendoom
    Gloomendoom Posts: 16,550 Forumite
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    gzoom wrote: »
    This review of the iPace sums it up well, Jaguars first EV isn't simply a good car, it's the best Jaguar you can buy right now.

    That rather depends on your priorities. It's a good car but the worst Jaguar you can buy right now if you want a convertible or tow a caravan.
  • Arklight
    Arklight Posts: 3,171 Forumite
    First Anniversary First Post
    gzoom wrote: »
    At sub 10mpg with a 18gallon tank range is probably similar, difference been it costs me <£5 to refuel versus £100. But the reality is hardly another drives 200 miles+ on UK roads in one go regularly, and if you do you have my sympathies. I did a one day from Leicester to Leeds recently on paper it wasn't far, 230 miles all it, spent nearly 4hr 30min that day on the roads - the car arrived home with 7% charge but that really is about as far as I want to drive these days with a 2 year old.


    Looked at going to GoodWoodFestival of speed next week as have a day off at work on Thursday, 'only' 160 miles each way - but over 6hrs of driving according to Google, forget that, going to stay home instead. Its nothing to do with range/charging, more to do with the fact by the time I dropped my daughter off at nursery, driven down to GoodWood, I'll have a max of 2hrs to look round before driving back up to do pick up, or I could take my daughter, 6hrs+ in a car with a 2 year old...... :(.


    As for actual battery degradation, Tesla cells are a totally different animal from the cells in your phone/laptop. In the lab most Li-ion cells show noticeable degradation after 500 cycles - so roughly 2 years of use if you charge up every day. Tesla cells in the same lab setting shows less degradation after 3000 cycles and at higher discharge rates!!! (but as we all know all Li-ion cells are the same ;)).


    26515265568_9c5e2be197_b.jpg


    40386449501_4c57738dba_b.jpg


    In real life that equates to 600,000 miles use before dropping to 80% SOC assuming 200 miles per 100-0% discharge, the battery pack in these cars will out last the rest of the car!!!


    This is now been shown in real life data, where after the initial 5% drop at 50K mark there is very minimal degradation. Yes there is other 'future' battery tech coming but they are 10-20 years away from production, Li-ion tech is already good enough for 95% of the car owning public.


    https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/


    Ultimately it comes down to the car buying public, I'm lucky enough to be able to afford any number of very nice combustion cars, and have owned very very good combustion cars in the past. But ever since trying my first EV (a Nissan Leaf) I haven't wanted to own/drive any thing else but EVs.


    The biggest barriers to EVs is still price, you need to be able to spend £60k+ on a car at the moment to get into something with the range/speed of a Tesla/iPace/eTron. But that is changing, Hyundai are bringing out the Kona at £30K for 200 miles of real world range, Tesla Model 3 at similar price/range is about 12-18 months away from the UK, and VAG will be bringing out their ID concept EVs to production soon.


    This review of the iPace sums it up well, Jaguars first EV isn't simply a good car, it's the best Jaguar you can buy right now. If your interested at all in cars this is a really exciting time to be alive, we're going through the biggest change in personal transportation in over a century, really exciting times ahead :).


    https://youtu.be/FILPOpickH4

    Good points. I’m not unwilling to be convinced, and I’m impressed by the engines, I just have doubts about the batteries.

    If you do go to Goodwood you’ll need to factor in a good long time time to get into the site. Depending on which way you are going you can easily spend 45 minutes inching down the A27.
  • zeupater
    zeupater Posts: 5,355 Forumite
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    AdrianC wrote: »
    It must be lovely to have everybody else subsidise your transport choices. Completely unsustainable, of course.
    Hi

    ... 'everybody else' may be a little disingenuous as it's not a sector mandated requirement and therefore, where competition exists, much comes down to supplier strategies & consumer personal choice ...

    There's the potential for plenty of business models for vehicle manufacturers to supply free or included energy for life or even for energy suppliers to charge usage back to their customer's home account at their own particular unit rate so there'll likely be a major shake-up in the way the 'remote energy supply' forecourt works over the next few decades ...

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    B)
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