newbie PCN lease car scotland

wicklamucker · 26 February 2018 at 2:35PM

Hi all, tried to encapsulate all in title... have been through the newbie thread but still not 100% on where i stand.

Background - work in a scottish city, had a company car (relinquished last friday) and have, on occasion, parked near the office in bays reserved for residents. On opposite side there are public bays but signage is poor (no entrance signs and sign by bay where i parked just reads private parking - refer to other signs for terms and conditions)....
The details shall follow, but probably slightly complicated further by the fact that some colleagues and i have also used photocopied permits....
At the start of last November i recieved a windscreen PCN - ignored it and subsequently lease company forwarded on NTK - i was happy on that occasion to (successfully) appeal directly there and then on the basis that that particular PCN stated no contravention....

This time....
29/11/17 recieved windscreen PCN with contravention of 'photo copied permit'
duly ignored it
23/02/18 recieved email from lease company copying 'Notice to Keeper or Hirer' which they recieved 12/02/18 (dated 02/02/18) from debt collector. This states £100 outstanding, recieved lease company details from DVLA using Reasonable Cause. Asks to advise of driver. Mentions that 'the signage, which is clearly displayed at hte entrance to and throughout the car park, states that this is private land, the car park is managed by P4Parking (UK) Ltd and details the terms and conditions of the car park by which those who park in the car park agree to be bound'.

Unsure of where i stand due to
a) the photocopied permit
b) POFA 2012 doesnt apply to Scotland.....

Can anyone please advise?

Coupon-mad · 26 February 2018 at 3:10PM

As a lease car driver you should NEVER ignore a windscreen PCN of any description.

Normally in Scotland a registered keeper of a car should (ignore private PCNs but not Council/Police ones!), but it is unsafe with lease cars, in case the fleet manager is an idiot who pays it.

Should have written to dispute the debt, so it never went to your lease firm, in case they just paid it (plus an admin fee). Lucky that didn't happen.

Anyway, now write as lessee to dispute the debt but you will not get POPLA in Scotland. Use the lease/hire version of lessee/hirer appeal, written by Edna Basher, linked at the bottom of post #1 of the sticky, and edit the PPC name and lease hire firm name to suit, and remove any line that asks for a POPLA code.

Then sit tight, ignore the demands, and complain LOUDLY to your MP and the landowner, and Trading Standards too.

wicklamucker · 26 February 2018 at 3:27PM

many thanks for that, yup thankful they didnt pay it up...

as an add on - im guessing for now i dont need to add anything about detail of signage etc??

In terms of the sit tight part and ignoring demands etc.... where could that possibly go?

Coupon-mad · 26 February 2018 at 3:34PM

Ignoring debt collector letters is the same as ignoring junk mail! They go nowhere because the debt collector cannot start 'parking charge' claims. Only the PPC could (rare in this case).

The NEWBIES thread post #2 tells you the Google search to do, that tells you how many court cases any named PPC have done in recent years.

Do that search, see what the BMPA says about them. P4Parking are not big in court IMHO, and we win 99% of cases defended well on this forum!

Worst case scenario - as long as people do NOT (of course) ignore a court claim or move house without telling the PPC the new address, and therefore miss court papers - is that you'd defend and likely win a small claim case.

If a rare case is lost at a hearing (very worst case scenario, highly unlikely) you'd then finally pay about £150 - £200 within 30 days. No huge costs, no effect on credit rating, no CCJ, no repercussions at all. We only saw TWO lose last year when forum-assisted. No big deal!

wicklamucker · 26 February 2018 at 3:55PM

thanks again for the assistance with this -
have looked through the Edna Basher template, but that still refers to POFA which i believe only is relevent to England and Scotland?

Fruitcake · 26 February 2018 at 4:35PM

wicklamucker wrote: »

thanks again for the assistance with this -
have looked through the Edna Basher template, but that still refers to POFA which i believe only is relevent to England and Scotland?

The POFA 2012 only applies to England and Wales, therefore there is no keeper liability outside those two countries. Only the driver can be held liable in Scotland and NI, which is why you never reveal the driver's identity. Be aware that one Scottish MP is trying to change this, Murdo Fraser. Make sure you don't vote for him.

So, you could modify Edna's template to state this if you wish, and tell the PPC to only contact the driver from now on, who you will not be naming.

These are some of the comments made by the MPs in Parliament concerning the unregulated parking industry (Feb 2018):

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-02-02/debates/CC84AF5E-AC6E-4E14-81B1-066E6A892807/Parking(CodeOfPractice)Bill

''Rip-offs from car park Cowboys must stop''; unfair treatment; signage deliberately confusing to ensure a PCN is issued; ''years of abuse by rogue parking companies''; bloodsuckers; ''the current system of regulation is hopeless, like putting Dracula in charge of the blood-bank''; extortionate fines; rogue operators; ''sense of injustice''; unfair charges and notices; wilfully misleading; signage is a deliberate act to deceive or mislead; ''confusing signs are often deliberate, to trap innocent drivers''; unreasonable; a curse; harassing; operating in a disgusting way; appeals service is no guarantee of a fair hearing; loathed; outrageous scam; dodgy practice; outrageous abuse; unscrupulous practices; ''the British Parking Association is as much use as a multi-storey car park in the Gobi desert''; and finally, by way of unanimous conclusion: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists and ordinary residents should not have to put up with this''.

These are the exact words used, so you should quote them to your MP in a complaint and ask him/her to contact Sir Greg Knight MP if he wants further information about this scam.

wicklamucker · 26 February 2018 at 4:39PM

as i thought...

which more or less makes EdnaBashers excellent template redundant for lease cars in Scotland....

any further suggestions as to how it can be taken further forward - or am i best placed just ignoring (the lease hire company have passed my details to the debt company) ????:(

wicklamucker · 26 February 2018 at 4:41PM

cheers mate - for some reason i only saw the first sentance of your reply.....

dont worry dont vote Tory anyway to Murdo can bog off.....

will reply as you suggest - will post here if i get any further forward.....

wicklamucker · 7 March 2018 at 9:14AM

Hi all, emailed the PPC (late) and recieved a response - both copied below.... any suggestions on what i should do now?

Thank you for taking your time to write us.

Please note that you are out of allowing time to submit an appeal and this should have been sent to the Appeals Department within the timeframe given.

You have already provided photographs with the signage at the entrance, and we can see that a “P” sign is installed, and that’s the sign which indicates that you have entered to a private land where parking restrictions apply. We hold photographic evidence of the vehicle parked in close proximity to a “P” sign indicating the private land parking area, and there are numerous signs around with the parking conditions.

You claim that no signs are in the area which inform the motorists of the parking rules and regulations, however, as the driver knew to put a photocopied permit in the vehicle, we are satisfied that the driver was also aware of the terms of parking.

This is our final correspondence in regards to this parking charge notice. If you wish the pictorial evidence, please request it from TNC Services.

Please do not reply to this message via e-mail. This address cannot help with questions or requests.

Kind Regards,
Complaints Department
E-mail: complaints@p4parking.co.uk

Sent: 06 March 2018 15:53
To: P4 Parking IA <p4parkingia@p4parking.co.uk>; Complaints <Complaints@p4parking.co.uk>
Subject: Parking charge

Dear Sir/Madam,
Re: PCN ~~~, vehicle reg. ######
I was alarmed to be issued recently with a threatening letter from TNC Parking Services (ref. P1151135) asking me to pay £100. As the hirer of the vehicle I was therefore the ‘keeper’ of the vehicle which received this purported 'parking charge'. As the incident occurred in Scotland then there can be no transfer of liability to the Registered Keeper as POFA doesn't apply. There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn.
The ‘parking charge’ is also unfair because:
There was insufficient signage. There was no sign at the entrance of the car park.
I enclose a photo of the entrance to the car park. It shows clearly that there was no sign about the parking charges.
This clearly contradicts the ‘Notice to Keeper or Hirer’ letter which includes the following incorrect statement:

Should you fail to cancel this PCN addressed to me immediately, I require the following information with your template rejection:

1. Does your charge represent damages for breach of contract? Answer yes or no.
2. Please provide dated photos of the signs that you say were on site (both at the entrance and at the car) clearly setting out the terms and conditions, which you contend formed a contract.
3. Please provide all photographs taken of this vehicle.

nosferatu1001 · 7 March 2018 at 9:17AM

You cant really do anything. You just have to hope they will only correspond with you from now on.

wicklamucker · 7 March 2018 at 9:44AM

you think i should just pay up?

newbie PCN lease car scotland

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