Charging Order? The myth

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  • eggbox
    eggbox Posts: 1,774 Forumite
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    Rangers123 wrote: »
    The Land Registry has told her the restriction would not be removed by transferring the title in this case because the company with the benefit of the restriction is dissolved. I don’t understand why, as the restriction is still the same, to give notice.
    Hopefully, Land Registry Rep may be able to shed some light on this and explain the LR reasons?
    Rangers123 wrote: »
    Now locked in a whole nightmare with the Treasury Solicitor, with the added bonus of doing all the work for them
    I think LRR has asked how (and why) the Treasury Solicitor has got involved and I'd be interested, too?
    Rangers123 wrote: »
    I’m genuinely tempted to apply to have the original charging order set aside, flying back to the UK and turning up in court in person. Such a frustrating situation, even more so for the other owners who are being prevented from selling their house.
    It's the CCJ you need set aside but it isn't anything that you will obtain, either, quickly or easily? You first need a reason why the Judgement should be set aside and that can be files online.
  • Land_Registry
    Land_Registry Posts: 5,782 Organisation Representative
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    eggbox wrote: »
    Hopefully, Land Registry Rep may be able to shed some light on this and explain the LR reasons?

    I think LRR has asked how (and why) the Treasury Solicitor has got involved and I'd be interested, too?

    I did ask initially but removed my comment as I wanted to dig deeper into the title number before replying.
    I can see we have had enquiries from those acting for both buyer and seller so am aware of background and replies.

    Before I post a full response I need to confirm certain matters with those who have replied to the enquiries. If you can hold fire a little longer I should hopefully be able to cover matters for you in detail from a registration perspective
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
  • Land_Registry
    Land_Registry Posts: 5,782 Organisation Representative
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    Rangers123 - sorry for the delay in posting again but I have been in discussions with colleagues over the specifics involved here. The outcome is a positive one with regards the issues raised so hopefully it will put the sale/purchase back on track for you. But I wanted to update you now to try and ease the frustrations you mentioned earlier

    I will be emailing the buyer's conveyancer with regards their original enquiry made in June and the response we provided.
    A colleague will be emailing your own conveyancer who submitted their own enquiry at the end of July as it was they who replied to that enquiry on 1st August.

    I'll post a general response here once those emails have been sent as I feel it is proper to notify the conveyancers directly and share the specific details with them. I'm sure you will understand.
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
  • Rangers123
    Rangers123 Posts: 24 Forumite
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    Rangers123 - sorry for the delay in posting again but I have been in discussions with colleagues over the specifics involved here. The outcome is a positive one with regards the issues raised so hopefully it will put the sale/purchase back on track for you. But I wanted to update you now to try and ease the frustrations you mentioned earlier

    I will be emailing the buyer's conveyancer with regards their original enquiry made in June and the response we provided.
    A colleague will be emailing your own conveyancer who submitted their own enquiry at the end of July as it was they who replied to that enquiry on 1st August.

    I'll post a general response here once those emails have been sent as I feel it is proper to notify the conveyancers directly and share the specific details with them. I'm sure you will understand.

    I can't thank you enough for spending time looking into this. I truly hope your intervention can break the deadlock. Sincerely appreciated.
  • Land_Registry
    Land_Registry Posts: 5,782 Organisation Representative
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    edited 7 August 2018 at 4:11PM
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    Rangers123 wrote: »
    I can't thank you enough for spending time looking into this. I truly hope your intervention can break the deadlock. Sincerely appreciated.

    We have now emailed both conveyancers to advise that providing the form K restriction is complied with and the named (on the register) creditor is notified of the sale by two or more registered owners for value then it will be overreached and automatically cancelled when the purchase is registered.

    The buyer's conveyancer contacted us initially to query whether the above was still true in light of the fact that the creditor, a company, had been dissolved. Our response sign-posted them to our guidance on corporate insolvency. As a result, and perhaps quite naturally, I assume they contacted your conveyancer to assist.

    Although the creditor's insolvency is relevant as to the debt/the CO it is not relevant with regards the overreaching of the form K restriction in the circumstances mentioned above.
    I have highlighted in the thread a few times how the devil is always in the detail re the Qs asked of us but in this case whilst I believe the reference to the creditor's insolvency caused us to answer as we did, we should have explained the above and how it did not impact on the requirements for the sale overreaching the form K restriction.

    Your conveyancer raised their own enquiry with us in an effort to remove the form K restriction. Removal in this case was not required as explained but doubtless our reply to the buyer's conveyancer caused them to then refer.
    Our response then sought to explain how the insolvency affected the debt and how the Treasury Solicitor, for the Channel islands in this case, might be involved. Those details are in the original response and today's additional reply.

    Your conveyancer has been provided with an explanation of the specifics involved and additional information re how the creditor's insolvency may affect the debt. However as already stated that is after the sale/purchase has completed and does not impact on how we would treat the purchaser's application/automatic cancellation of the form K restriction.

    Provided the restriction is complied with as per the registered details and the application is to register a transfer as described I do not envisage any further issues.

    eggbox from a wider perspective this example does not alter the position already shared and explained in your thread. The corporate insolvency is not significant to how a form K restriction might be overreached and automatically cancelled.

    The creditor's insolvency has, from a registration perspective, the same impact as say the debt being sold on as unless the register reflects such a change of circumstances a purchaser/their conveyancer need only comply with what is actually registered and not 'chase the debt' so to speak. The debt is the seller's concern after all in such cases and not the purchaser's

    The relevance of the Treasury Solicitor, there is also a Channel Islands 'version, is not significant re the overreaching. They would be involved re the actual debt hence reference to them in Rangers 123's posts previously
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
  • eggbox
    eggbox Posts: 1,774 Forumite
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    Thanks for your input on this LRR and, hopefully, the information you have provided (regarding creditors that have gone bust) should help anyone else in this situation should it arise?
  • simmian
    simmian Posts: 29 Forumite
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    Hi, Is it possible that I can add my wife to my property deeds if I have a charging order against my property? Would I only be able to add her if they were removed I only found out about the charging order last year when we tried to remortgage the property last year which I am gutted over. Why isn't there more publicity about these? The worst thing for me was that I was not aware of the charging orders until we reapplied. I can understand the risk if you have a secured loan but this is for a car loan and credit card. I would love to tell me what the difference between a secured loan and an unsecured loan because in my opinion there isn't any. It makes me sick that these debt companies buy your debt from banks for buttons.
  • eggbox
    eggbox Posts: 1,774 Forumite
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    simmian

    There is nothing to stop you adding your wife to the property deeds but I'm assuming you have a notice on your property (rather than a restriction) as you are, currently, the sole owner?

    If so, any financial interest she might gain in the property would only be realised after the mortgage and charging order were settled if the house were to be sold.
  • simmian
    simmian Posts: 29 Forumite
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    Thank's Eggbox. I am probably clutching at straws here but is there no possibility of changing the impact of the charging order by adding my wife to the morgage. I dont understand all the terminolgy and I am so p**sed of that my wife was not on the deeds beforehand so that it would have been a restriction. I bought the house before I married her. Would it be dated on the register?
    Is there anything anyone can suggest that may be of help other than paying these vultures off. I think I have said previously what sickens me with these charging orders was that I was not informed at the time and what is the point in a secured loan and a personal loan when they can both be applied to your property its a disgrace. I am so sickened by this because I was not aware until we remortgaged and found out that I had 2 charging orders. 1 for 14K and the other for 9K apologies for rambling but so stressed. Any help would be appreciated.
  • eggbox
    eggbox Posts: 1,774 Forumite
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    Simmian

    Unfortunately, adding your wife won't alter the impact of the Charging Orders as they are dealt with by date of registration. So it's better to understand that, take a deep breath, and persue other options to a remortgage which are out there?

    Your only hope of ever affecting the Charging Orders (and it's an extremely slim chance so, please, understand that) would be if you had cause to set aside the original County Court Judgements that were made against you and which enabled the CO's to be obtained? This would only have any merit in pursuing, however, if you don't owe the money or you dispute the amounts claimed but were never informed of the Court Claim against you?

    Everyone and his cat agrees it's outragous "unsecured" loans are able to charge high interest rates (as the loan is "unsecured") but which can then be turned into a secured loan, in default, without recourse to the original interest rate charged for the loan. It's quite simply scandalous.

    You can try to negotiate lower settlements with the creditors but be aware most are half wits who refuse to take a penny less even if their loan values are depreciating and they know they won't get paid for many years to come? But that's not to say you might not get lucky if you try?
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