Solar ... In the news

zeupater · 14 March 2018 at 1:05PM

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Here's another thought, my 'German fan' keeps stating that EDF can build another nuclear powerstation for £70/MWh, rather than the £97/MWh for HPC.

So ....... as HPC construction has barely started, why not prove that by building HPC at £70/MWh and saving us £27/MWh in subsidy = £24bn.

Then take that £24bn and spend it on off-shore wind at the latest contract (2022/23 allocation) of approx £62/MWh in todays money.

Assuming wholesale prices of £50/MWh, and a subsidy top up of £12/MWh that £24bn would get us:-

£24bn / 15yrs = £1.6bn pa

£1.6bn / £12/MWh = 135TWh

135TWh is approx 40% of UK leccy consumption, v's the 7% from HPC.

Just a thought?

Hi

I didn't calculate the impact at the time, but had the same thought when I saw the EDF comment .... after-all HPC isn't exactly a 'first-of-kind' build ... it's a little akin to the first customer to buy an EV or TV having to pay all of the development costs on the promise that all future deliveries will be priced according to production cost!

If developing countries such as India are managing to look at building solar capacity in 3GWp increments without significant detrimental impact to their grid I can't see why the UK can't look at similar increments, as long as they're well matched to centralised pumped storage or distributed embedded batteries.

Someone in Whitehall really does need to get their pencils out and ensure that the tax-paying consumer gets the best deal available - as you say, if EDF now say they can build cheaper, then why aren't they being forced to deliver cheaper - if they look to take the long-term benefit, why should they not absorb the short-term risk too ?

HTH
Z

Martyn1981 · 14 March 2018 at 1:50PM

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

If developing countries such as India are managing to look at building solar capacity in 3GWp increments without significant detrimental impact to their grid I can't see why the UK can't look at similar increments, as long as they're well matched to centralised pumped storage or distributed embedded batteries.

HTH
Z

Yep, it's never been a major concern of mine, despite the many claims that the grid would be flooded at times with PV. Those 'times' as far as I can tell are a few hours, on Sundays, in the best 3 or 4 months, if the weather is great, hardly a massive annual loss if generation is curbed.

Of course, now, any concerns I did have that PV would be limited to around 7-10% in the UK without storage, have disappeared completely due to a complimentary co-incidence of EV's.

So I'm even now starting to reconsider something I said way back that 20% of supply from PV with storage, would be possible, it may actually be higher if PV becomes dirt cheap, or more correctly, extra PV panels become dirt cheap.

I know that nuclear supporters get upset when comparisons to nuclear are made, but it's a bit frightening to think that that 40% from off-shore wind I mentioned would be subsidised simply from the savings of rolling out nuclear at £70/MWh rather than £97/MWh.

Obviously, the potential alternative amount of wind and PV generation increases exponentially as they approach the wholesale rate of leccy, and that's the very incredible thing that they are now doing, much to my shock.

This article points to a £1/MWh saving on off-shore wind, simply from improved piling, and I assume many such savings will arrive in the next few years. And of course the end of the MIP, further falling costs, longer life expectancies and some increased efficiency, will result in significant further reductions in the cost of PV.

pile-o-stone · 14 March 2018 at 4:16PM

Martyn1981 wrote: »

So Aus$6k is approx £3,400.

Even taking into account the MIP which Europe has, and the fact that many Aus properties may well be single storey, that's still a staggering price.

Goes to show what can be achieved if the industry is supported and supply chains (importers, wholesalers and retailers) aren't damaged by boom and bust political decisions.

One reason for the higher prices we pay for solar in the UK is because of EU tariffs on solar panels.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/sep/08/solar-industry-says-eu-tariffs-chinese-imports-will-raise-panel-prices

According to that article, there is a 30% tariff on imported solar panels. It's interesting that when Trump put tariffs on solar panels he was accused of trying to destroy the market for PV in favour of coal. When the EU puts tariffs on solar panels you don't hear a peep.

These tariffs don't just hit solar panels. I saw an article the other day that said there is a 100% tariff on imported processed food goods. This has a huge impact on developing countries who produce the raw materials, but are not able to manufacture the end products, which prevents them setting up factories and employing people. It's an appalling fact that Germany makes more money out of coffee than Africa does, due to these production tariffs.

The sooner we get out of the protectionist EU, the better. *steps down from soap box*

zeupater · 14 March 2018 at 5:03PM

pile-o-stone wrote: »

One reason for the higher prices we pay for solar in the UK is because of EU tariffs on solar panels.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/sep/08/solar-industry-says-eu-tariffs-chinese-imports-will-raise-panel-prices

According to that article, there is a 30% tariff on imported solar panels. It's interesting that when Trump put tariffs on solar panels he was accused of trying to destroy the market for PV in favour of coal. When the EU puts tariffs on solar panels you don't hear a peep.

These tariffs don't just hit solar panels. I saw an article the other day that said there is a 100% tariff on imported processed food goods. This has a huge impact on developing countries who produce the raw materials, but are not able to manufacture the end products, which prevents them setting up factories and employing people. It's an appalling fact that Germany makes more money out of coffee than Africa does, due to these production tariffs.

The sooner we get out of the protectionist EU, the better. *steps down from soap box*

Hi

That's what the MIP that Martyn1981 mentioned is ... 'Minimum Import Price', an EU single market trade protectionism measure which helps EU (/mainly German) manufacturers at the expense of all EU consumers ...

HTH
Z

Martyn1981 · 14 March 2018 at 6:01PM

pile-o-stone wrote: »

According to that article, there is a 30% tariff on imported solar panels. It's interesting that when Trump put tariffs on solar panels he was accused of trying to destroy the market for PV in favour of coal. When the EU puts tariffs on solar panels you don't hear a peep.

Actually there's been much more than a peep, it's been an extremely controversial issue for years with most of the solar industry up in arms. Just like in the US, it protects a tiny number of manufacturing jobs, but negatively impacts 10's or 100's of thousands of jobs in the wider solar industry.

Last year the vote to remove it was 14 in favour, 1 against and 13 abstentions. As the 'in favour' vote wasn't a majority, the MIP survived on what I grudgingly admit is democracy, but can I believe also be classed as a technicality.

You're right about the 30%, at least that's the figure I've heard that European panel prices differ from Asian prices. The impact on solar prices is therefore about 10% on residential, as the panels represent about 30% of the install cost, and about 15% on PV farms where the panels represent about 50% of the install price.

What a mess.

NigeWick · 15 March 2018 at 11:05AM

zeupater wrote: »

Someone in Whitehall really does need to get their pencils out and ensure that the tax-paying consumer gets the best deal available

But, it's not *their* money so why would they bother?

Exit stage left mumbling obscenities.

silverwhistle · 15 March 2018 at 12:01PM

NigeWick wrote: »

But, it's not *their* money so why would they bother?

I rather suspect that they have neither the time nor the energy at the moment.

Further back they could only intervene if there was some political clout behind them, and similarly in the corridors at Brussels. If we'd have taken it all a bit more seriously and put a bit more effort in to lobbying there may well have been different outcomes.

We were, and at the moment still are, part of the EU, and I would suggest rather than simply blame a convenient scapegoat that we look at our government for their contribution, being such enthusiasts for solar, wind, an' all..

Mnd · 15 March 2018 at 4:58PM

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5503953/New-solar-panels-harvest-energy-rain-sunshine.htm

This may be interesting to you all

pile-o-stone · 16 March 2018 at 11:03AM

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

That's what the MIP that Martyn1981 mentioned is ... 'Minimum Import Price', an EU single market trade protectionism measure which helps EU (/mainly German) manufacturers at the expense of all EU consumers ...

HTH
Z

Ah! I did wonder. I did a google of MIP, but it came up with all sorts.

There's a ton of protectionism in the EU. I was reading that there is a 100% tariff on processed food. This impacts food producing countries, because while they can supply the cheap raw materials, they can't put them together and sell them cost effectively in the EU. So instead of being able to set up factories to produce food (and employee a lot of people), they can only farm and ship it to the EU.

It's an appalling fact that Germany makes more from coffee production than Africa does. Couple this with the EU Common Agricultural Policy providing crop surpluses that are then dumped on third-world markets, you can see why it difficult for developing countries to grow their agricultural economies.

Martyn1981 · 19 March 2018 at 7:19PM

pile-o-stone wrote: »

Ah! I did wonder. I did a google of MIP, but it came up with all sorts.

Could be worse, I'm trying to keep up with all the potential US impeachment and Trump downfall information, but Googling Stormy Daniels is a bit of a minefield!

Regarding the US solar tariffs, I forget if this is a current number or peak number, but I heard there are (were) 1,200 jobs in PV panel production, but approx 250,000 jobs in the PV industry. I'm not a fan of dumping, but I think Trump has failed to see the big picture here if he pushes up the cost of PV .... and steel and aluminium/aluminum too.

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