New flat MTB pedals (with reflectors)
Comments
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You're right to be sceptical of clipless and you're definitely right to try it out first. When I was out cycling in groups I was relentlessly pushed to switch to clipless pedals as I was constantly told how much faster I could go and how much longer I could manage. I eventually gave in and jumped in with both feet buying a fairly expensive pair of Shimano shoes (they were the best fit when I tried a few shoes on) and Shimano clipless pedals.
I never liked it at all but was told to stick with it and I'd get the hang of it although months went by and it got no better plus no matter how much I adjusted the pedals and cleats, I couldn't avoid knee pain. I was convinced to change to a different clipless pedal system with more float but I didn't like them any better. Aside from the knee pain I'd never liked the feel of the pedals nor had I seen any of the improvements that had been promised.
I decided I'd wasted enough time and money on the clipless pedals and went back to flats and wish I'd done so sooner, I'm annoyed I let myself be badgered into changing pedals when I was happy with what I had. I think a lot of it comes down to the feel of the pedals, the 'pull up' advantage of clipless pedals has been disproved and the large performance benefits claimed are also not true:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNedIJBZpgM
I think what it comes down to is whether people like the feel of the pedals or not, in some hill climbing tests the flat pedals have been slightly more efficient but the person doing the testing said they felt the lumpier cadence of the flats was more tiring and less efficient so were surprised to find that wasn't the case.
I'm not saying you shouldn't try clipless pedals, you may find you do like them but don't fall for an exaggerated claims about them. They seem to have reached this almost mythological status to the point where many people are now convinced it's not possible to cycle long distance or any sort of speed unless you have clipless pedals. I did a CX race a couple of years back on a fairly hefty 15kg bike amongst lightweight CX bikes some of which were probably a similar weigh to my wheels alone, I got a decent result and it wasn't the fact that I had a much heavier bike that surprised people it's that I'd managed that sort of speed on flat pedals...sigh. I still get regularly told I'll need to switch to clipless pedals when I start doing longer rides, they're genuinely surprised when I tell them I've done 10-12 hour rides and 24 hour endurance races on flat pedals because that just isn't possible.
John0 -
I am the opposite, apart from my town bike, I ride clipless all the time, mainly for touring and audax rides. Certainly less tiring on a day ride of 200km and they provide more security struggling up hills out of the saddle than flats.. Set up is crucial though and a bit like saddles what works for you might not work for someone else, and it can get a bit expensive experimenting with a number of set ups.
Being old I fortunate now know what works for me, Brooks saddle and MTB double sided clip less, even on my CF road bike.0 -
You're right to be sceptical of clipless and you're definitely right to try it out first. When I was out cycling in groups I was relentlessly pushed to switch to clipless pedals as I was constantly told how much faster I could go and how much longer I could manage. I eventually gave in and jumped in with both feet buying a fairly expensive pair of Shimano shoes (they were the best fit when I tried a few shoes on) and Shimano clipless pedals.
I never liked it at all but was told to stick with it and I'd get the hang of it although months went by and it got no better plus no matter how much I adjusted the pedals and cleats, I couldn't avoid knee pain. I was convinced to change to a different clipless pedal system with more float but I didn't like them any better. Aside from the knee pain I'd never liked the feel of the pedals nor had I seen any of the improvements that had been promised.
I decided I'd wasted enough time and money on the clipless pedals and went back to flats and wish I'd done so sooner, I'm annoyed I let myself be badgered into changing pedals when I was happy with what I had. I think a lot of it comes down to the feel of the pedals, the 'pull up' advantage of clipless pedals has been disproved and the large performance benefits claimed are also not true:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNedIJBZpgM
I think what it comes down to is whether people like the feel of the pedals or not, in some hill climbing tests the flat pedals have been slightly more efficient but the person doing the testing said they felt the lumpier cadence of the flats was more tiring and less efficient so were surprised to find that wasn't the case.
I'm not saying you shouldn't try clipless pedals, you may find you do like them but don't fall for an exaggerated claims about them. They seem to have reached this almost mythological status to the point where many people are now convinced it's not possible to cycle long distance or any sort of speed unless you have clipless pedals. I did a CX race a couple of years back on a fairly hefty 15kg bike amongst lightweight CX bikes some of which were probably a similar weigh to my wheels alone, I got a decent result and it wasn't the fact that I had a much heavier bike that surprised people it's that I'd managed that sort of speed on flat pedals...sigh. I still get regularly told I'll need to switch to clipless pedals when I start doing longer rides, they're genuinely surprised when I tell them I've done 10-12 hour rides and 24 hour endurance races on flat pedals because that just isn't possible.
John
If moving to clipless a proper bike fit is a good idea, it's not necessarily the angle of the pedals / cleats but it can accentuate the problems from a bad setup such as wrong saddle height etc given you are fixed in rather than able to move around. I have pretty much pain free clipless riding since I had a £50 fit to get all the angles right. When I changed the pedals from the shimano to speedplay the guy in the shop fitted them and when testing noticed the saddle on my commuter bike which I had been riding 3+ years was too high as it meant my legs were pretty much straight on the down position!
I've seen the video before, please don't make the mistake of confusing a largely unscientific one off test by a couple of guys with being some sort of conclusive debunk of millions of pounds of research done by pros. Specialized for example do wind tunnel tests to establish something as simple as what hair style is best for female riders (a bun > pony tail > loose) and whether shaving legs helps men (it does, for a pro rider). The GCN guys offer great videos and tips but they're not scientists and their tests involve 1 guy in a one off trial with little in the way of proper testing.
Clipless has many advantages such as guaranteed power (your foot could slip off the pedal at a crucial moment in a sprint for example especially at high cadence or in the wet or on a poor surface), better handling, no need to concentrate on the pedalling side of the bike especially if you can't see the road very well e.g. in a pack or at night etc
For the pros, especially for sprints and small uphills the clipless system does provide more power.
For example a paper published in International Journal of Sport Biometrics 7:29-53, 1991 from Texas concluded"...while torque during the upstroke did reduce the total positive work required during the downstroke, it did not contribute significantly to the external work done because 98.6% and 96.3% of the total work done at the low and high workloads, respectively, was done during the downstroke."
Marginal gains perhaps but still significant at the higher end0 -
If moving to clipless a proper bike fit is a good idea, it's not necessarily the angle of the pedals / cleats but it can accentuate the problems from a bad setup such as wrong saddle height etc given you are fixed in rather than able to move around. I have pretty much pain free clipless riding since I had a £50 fit to get all the angles right. When I changed the pedals from the shimano to speedplay the guy in the shop fitted them and when testing noticed the saddle on my commuter bike which I had been riding 3+ years was too high as it meant my legs were pretty much straight on the down position!
I knew this was coming....I had a bike fit, tried it on multiple bikes, also tried multiple clipless pedal systems and couldn't get as comfortable as I was with flats.I've seen the video before, please don't make the mistake of confusing a largely unscientific one off test by a couple of guys with being some sort of conclusive debunk of millions of pounds of research done by pros. Specialized for example do wind tunnel tests to establish something as simple as what hair style is best for female riders (a bun > pony tail > loose) and whether shaving legs helps men (it does, for a pro rider). The GCN guys offer great videos and tips but they're not scientists and their tests involve 1 guy in a one off trial with little in the way of proper testing.
Also knew this was coming, it's quite entertaining that every video no matter how it's done if it doesn't show the mythical clipless advantage, then it must be wrong. Everything you've referred to is not relevant to normal riders like us, it's like suggesting we should change our driving habits to how Lewis Hamilton drives because it's faster for him - the pros do many things differently to normal riders because they ride differently and for their type of riding, every tiny percentage is worth going for.
I'm not going to post the many other recent examples showing clipless failed to give the promised advantages as I'm sure they'll just be casually dismissed as well.Clipless has many advantages such as guaranteed power (your foot could slip off the pedal at a crucial moment in a sprint for example especially at high cadence or in the wet or on a poor surface), better handling, no need to concentrate on the pedalling side of the bike especially if you can't see the road very well e.g. in a pack or at night etc
If your foot is slipping on a flat pedal, you need to change the pedal and/or the shoe because even when riding on wet, slippy CX courses where I've had to get on and off the bike, I haven't slipped on the pedals (and still out sprinted other riders on clipless in rough conditions - impossible I know but I'm just that good I can defy the impossible it seems). Clipless actually makes for worse handling, it's quite common for people to go back to flats to relearn the bike skills they've lost with clipless pedals. There's absolutely no need to 'concentrate' on pedalling with flats (I frequently see this as a stated disadvantage and no idea where it comes from), you put your foot on the pedal and push down..don't need to worry about position, don't need to worry about clipping in and don't need to worry about clipping out...way less concentration needed.For the pros, especially for sprints and small uphills the clipless system does provide more power.
Marginal gains perhaps but still significant at the higher end
For the pros - that's exactly it although the gains aren't significant at the high end, they're tiny but every tiny advantage counts. I totally get that people like the feel of clipless pedals and it follows they'll pedal better but I get irritated by these fabricated advantages which there's plenty of evidence to disprove them. I wish I hadn't listened to the claims such as above that I was relentlessly parroted much the same as yourself and found myself they didn't exist.
I wish people had been more honest with me when badgering me to change - definitely not a bad idea to try clipless pedals and if you like the feel of them, then carry on with them. But I wouldn't spend a lot of money doing so and if you don't like them, don't feel you have to stay with them as the actual performance benefit in reality for normal riders is not even noticeable.
John0 -
Keep_pedalling wrote: »I am the opposite, apart from my town bike, I ride clipless all the time, mainly for touring and audax rides. Certainly less tiring on a day ride of 200km and they provide more security struggling up hills out of the saddle than flats.. Set up is crucial though and a bit like saddles what works for you might not work for someone else, and it can get a bit expensive experimenting with a number of set ups.
Being old I fortunate now know what works for me, Brooks saddle and MTB double sided clip less, even on my CF road bike.
It's also crucial with flats that you have the bike set up properly, if the flats are more tiring and you've got the risk of pedal slips then there's something wrong. In actual testing, there's actually less effort needed on flats to climb hills it's just people used to clipless feel like it's more effort due to the lumpier pedal stroke. A good platform pedal and shoe should not be slipping at all, I've done 24 hour mountain biking in the rain and mud as well as soaking wet cx races with no pedal slips even accelerating hard on rough terrain. Accelerating up hills in the rain on a road bike is a breeze by comparison.
I tried bike fit, changing the bike setup, different bikes and different pedal systems until I gave up wasting several hundred pounds in the process. I just wish I'd paid attention to the science rather than listening to advice from other cyclist and saved wasting a lot of time and money as my experience with both systems is pretty much bang on what scientific testing shows - clipless benefits are very small in certain circumstances and nothing like what is claimed by clipless proponents. I just genuinely don't understand how clipless pedals have achieved this near legendary status, it's almost as bad as 1x drivetrains.
John0 -
Cheers all. I've also had a few people telling me that I absolutely must try clipless pedals as I'll be able to travel so much further and faster...
But I've realised how often I put my feet down in certain situations -- for example on very narrow shared paths, or on hilly rough ground, etc.
And I don't try to compete against myself (or anyone else) by setting times or having an exercise regime, so I'm not worried about being super-efficient.
Just the other day, I pulled in behind a parked car, breaking quite hard, and tried to simultaneously return the wave given to me by the oncoming driver. Anyway I soft-of slipped off the saddle and pedals and ended up leaning over the handlebars! If I'd have had clipless pedals, I wouldn't have been able to unclip and would've ended up hurting myself!
I'll definitely give them a go at some point (if I can borrow some shoes), but I think I'll stick with flats for now.
I've actually seen quite a few articles on MTB sites suggesting that people switch to flats to improve their performance. So, I guess it all depends on how you ride as to which is "best"...?0 -
I knew this was coming....I had a bike fit, tried it on multiple bikes, also tried multiple clipless pedal systems and couldn't get as comfortable as I was with flats.
Also knew this was coming, it's quite entertaining that every video no matter how it's done if it doesn't show the mythical clipless advantage, then it must be wrong. Everything you've referred to is not relevant to normal riders like us, it's like suggesting we should change our driving habits to how Lewis Hamilton drives because it's faster for him - the pros do many things differently to normal riders because they ride differently and for their type of riding, every tiny percentage is worth going for.
I'm not going to post the many other recent examples showing clipless failed to give the promised advantages as I'm sure they'll just be casually dismissed as well.
If your foot is slipping on a flat pedal, you need to change the pedal and/or the shoe because even when riding on wet, slippy CX courses where I've had to get on and off the bike, I haven't slipped on the pedals (and still out sprinted other riders on clipless in rough conditions - impossible I know but I'm just that good I can defy the impossible it seems). Clipless actually makes for worse handling, it's quite common for people to go back to flats to relearn the bike skills they've lost with clipless pedals. There's absolutely no need to 'concentrate' on pedalling with flats (I frequently see this as a stated disadvantage and no idea where it comes from), you put your foot on the pedal and push down..don't need to worry about position, don't need to worry about clipping in and don't need to worry about clipping out...way less concentration needed.
For the pros - that's exactly it although the gains aren't significant at the high end, they're tiny but every tiny advantage counts. I totally get that people like the feel of clipless pedals and it follows they'll pedal better but I get irritated by these fabricated advantages which there's plenty of evidence to disprove them. I wish I hadn't listened to the claims such as above that I was relentlessly parroted much the same as yourself and found myself they didn't exist.
I wish people had been more honest with me when badgering me to change - definitely not a bad idea to try clipless pedals and if you like the feel of them, then carry on with them. But I wouldn't spend a lot of money doing so and if you don't like them, don't feel you have to stay with them as the actual performance benefit in reality for normal riders is not even noticeable.
John
What I am pointing out is that sources are not necessarily valid just because they support your view. GCN are a great bunch and do some useful videos for new riders but it doesn't mean they are scientific or a one off video with limited testing or controls is definitive. Using a video like that as proof is a basic logical fallacy which is why I pointed it out and also provided details of a peer reviewed medical journal which IS a valid source. If you explore enough you can find videos "proving" there were no planes involved in 9/11 or that the Queen is a lizard, that doesn't mean they are true. This is why confirmation bias is such a big issue - when you set out to investigate something by only looking at sources that tell you what you already believe and never at sources that challenge you then your argument will never be solid.
It's the same with your anecdotal evidence about bike fitting. What works or not for you doesn't somehow prove the whole thing is invalid. Millions is spent on technology and research to develop best practice techniqueso using cameras, lasers etc to get the right position for each rider, maybe it was not right for you but that doesn't mean the whole practice is invalid.
Do a little research into things you don't believe and you might be surprised at the solid evidence disproving ideas you believed to be facts0 -
Why has this turned into clipless Vs flats?
OP, the superstar el Plastique/nukeproof neutron evo are one of the best flat pedals around given their price/durability/performance and weight. I use them on my downhill MTB as well as my fast road hybrid.0
This discussion has been closed.
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