Council failed to ensure regulations were enforced

doug66 · 9 October 2017 at 11:19AM

Not sure if anyone here can help me but here's the problem.
My house, like all the other houses on my street, were built by the same builder in the mid 70's. Most of them are to the same design.
In the past year a couple of my neighbours have had to have lintels installed above windows (8' wide) and patio doors (9' wide) because the builder didn't bother to put any in and the brickwork above them is now starting to collapse. As my home is the same design I don't suppose it will be long before mine does the same.
As far as I'm concerned the local councils building control officer shouldn't have signed the properties off without lintels, but he or she did.
They are trying to say that it's none of their responsibility as they subcontracted the work out to a 3rd party and they no longer have the records, my argument is that they should have ensured that the 3rd party was qualified to do the work and actually did the work as required, it was the responsibility of the council to ensure that the houses were built in accordance with the regulations.
Anyone have any advice on this?

aneary · 9 October 2017 at 11:23AM

Nearly 50 years later I don't think you will get very far.

All records would have been on paper and I don't they will have the records anymore

Browntoa · 9 October 2017 at 11:24AM

May not have been council inspection in the first place

Many builders employ private building inspector (who are meant to work to the same standard

Still builder's responsibility regardless

societys_child · 9 October 2017 at 11:58AM

I remember brick lintels (bricks on end) still being constructed, 50 years ago, on the outer leaf, with the inner leaf being supported by nothing much more than a length of steel angle. When coupled with thick wooden window frames, which added support, this appears to have been acceptable.
Do you have any plans/ drawings, showing what lintels should have been used at the time?

Seen plenty of houses with tell-tale signs above windows when the wooden frames have later been changed for aluminium or uPVC, without the addition of a new lintel.

beeg0d · 9 October 2017 at 12:05PM

You will proberlly find the house did have lintels of sourts but just dosnet now.

In the 70's the use of concrete lintels over windows/doors were rare, What was more common was the wooden windows would act as the lintels (the top beam of the window frame would be structual). The problem occurs in the 80's/90's when people started taking the wooden frames out and replacing them with UPVC. People who didnt realise the window frames were structual would simply replace the wood with cheap upvc and over time the house would start falling around the window. When all that was needed was a structual upvc frame, This is the reason why now when you change a window would need either building control approval or FENSA.

eddddy · 9 October 2017 at 12:08PM

In general, council building control departments aren't liable if they fail to spot a breach of building regs.

Here's a case that went to court: https://www.rollits.com/news/articles/can-i-sue-the-building-control-officer.aspx

Also, sometimes builders use 'structural window frames'. These are designed to be strong enough to support the weight of the brickwork etc above them - so no lintel is required.

So it could be that the structural window frames have failed (rotted?) after 40 to 50 years.

Or... have the houses in question had replacement windows fitted? If so, it could be that 'cowboy' window fitters replaced structural window frames with ordinary window frames.

TBagpuss · 9 October 2017 at 12:46PM

Timing would also be an issue. Generally, you only have 6 years from when the negligence occurs (or from the date you first become aware of it, if later) to make any claim. You also have to show that the person or organisation which you allege was negligent had a duty of care to you.
(I am not aware of different time limits for building claims but that doesn't mean that there aren't any! )

Did you have a survey when you bought the house, and what did it say about the lintels?

Have you had any advice to see whether there is an issue with your house?

G_M · 9 October 2017 at 1:03PM

Like beeg0d above, I suspect the problem is replacement of the original structural windows by upvc double glazed windows.

Have the properties with the problem all got replacement windows?

moneyistooshorttomention · 9 October 2017 at 1:22PM

G_M wrote: »

Like beeg0d above, I suspect the problem is replacement of the original structural windows by upvc double glazed windows.

Have the properties with the problem all got replacement windows?

I would tend to agree with this.

I've had similar in my last house - ie a Victorian house that had had its original windows replaced by a previous owner with aluminium single-glazed windows.

Cue for me coming along in the 1980s and thinking "Time to replace those windows with upvc double-glazed ones" and wondering what on earth had happened when the fitters were standing there looking nonplussed when I went into a room to find out why I'd just heard a noise and they were standing around looking at the gap in the wall that had just appeared over one of the old windows they'd just taken out:eek:

At which point I thought "This is between previous owners of this house and these fitters now and nowt to do with me" and left the fitters to it to figure out how best to deal with this unexpected issue (which, in hindsight, seems to have consisted of them just putting up a wider upvc "top" to the window than they had probably planned on - to hide the hole in the wall).

It's taken some while after the event and a bit of piecing together on my part to figure out what happened there/what previous owners did/what the window fitters did (ie nothing basically:(). What should have happened at that point in time is the window fitter should have known what had happened/explained to me what had happened/arranged to have it sorted one way or another and it would have been established just who paid for the previous owners' lintels (whether it was the window fitters or me).

In hindsight - and knowing what I do now about what happened there - then I'd have probably thought "I'd better deal with the previous owners' omissions there - and have a concrete lintel put in over each of the windows concerned" and had to just accept I'd just paid a "previous owner bill" for them.

EachPenny · 9 October 2017 at 1:52PM

doug66 wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned the local councils building control officer shouldn't have signed the properties off without lintels, but he or she did.
They are trying to say that it's none of their responsibility as they subcontracted the work out to a 3rd party and they no longer have the records, my argument is that they should have ensured that the 3rd party was qualified to do the work and actually did the work as required, it was the responsibility of the council to ensure that the houses were built in accordance with the regulations.

Just to clarify - are the council saying that they have now contracted building control out, or that this specific housing project was contracted out?

If it was contracted out in the 1970's then it would be a little unusual, but the council should still have records.

If they mean Building Control is now contracted out, then the contractor should still hold the records on the council's behalf.

But regardless, you cannot really do anything now because the chances are the building complied with the regulations and methods of construction in use at the time.

Many historic bay window constructions rely on the ground floor window frames to support the first floor bay. Changing any window is a risky business unless you know how the wall above is supported.

00ec25 · 9 October 2017 at 1:55PM

doug66 wrote: »

t was the responsibility of the council to ensure that the houses were built in accordance with the regulations.

indeed

but what were the regulations at the time they were built? Have you looked?

societys_child wrote: »

I remember brick lintels (bricks on end) still being constructed, 50 years ago, on the outer leaf, with the inner leaf being supported by nothing much more than a length of steel angle. When coupled with thick wooden window frames, which added support, this appears to have been acceptable.

exactly how one of mine is built (1955 ex council house)

no question at all about it being built to the building regulations in place at that time comprising a soldier course of bricks across the window on the outer leaf and, as you say, angle iron for the inner course. No lintel. And yes, some of them are now bowing and having "modern" lintels retrospectively installed

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Council failed to ensure regulations were enforced

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