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Cel ltd - county court claim

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Hi guys,

Looking for some help if possible. I've read the newbie section but to be honest its making my mind hurt! I'm easily confused, and not sure how I'm going to proceed with this so any help is greatly appreciated.

I have received a CCC dated 09/11/2018 for the sum of £200+ from CEL regarding a PCN I apparently received on the 30th November 2017 for parking in a local NISA car park. I am the registered keeper of the vehicle, which is a motability car, however someone else is insured to drive this also, and being so long ago I simply can't remember who was driving at the time. I rarely go out at night alone, and according to this letter it was after 7pm so I find it hard to believe it was me at the time?

After reading through various threads I have gone on MCOL and submitted my AOS and said I was going to be defending all of the claim but now I'm unsure how to proceed.

I haven't received any letters to this previously so was completely unaware about the original PCN as I would of paid it to avoid any stress as I am currently unwell. I live in a block of flats and our postboxes are outside and are constantly being broken into. I usually deal with everything online so rarely get any post. It was only because this was accidentally posted into a neighbours postbox that I actually received this CCC.

I've since returned to the car park that I think it could of been, as it doesn't actually specify and we have a few NISAs in Peterborough, and I have noticed there are indeed several signs scattered all over the walls, and one giant one outside saying you will be charged £100 if you fail to leave within 40 minutes, and that they use ANPR cameras. However none of these signs are lit up at night time, and with it being the run up to Christmas, this car park would of been really busy so i'm unsure if there were even signs at the time.

How do I proceed with this? Looking online it says a few things, that they haven't signed the letter correctly, that they need to send evidence, none of which I've received (photos etc) and that you need POC's, but I think mine includes this? I've also read contacting the supermarkets head office sometimes helps as they usually just pay the parking company, but they're advising as they sold this bit of land to CEL they don't do anything to help customers, and that most usually ignore it and get away with it? When I asked why there were cars parked there overnight they said they were simply exempt.

Any help like I said is massively appreciated, my partner is saying he will pay it as its hassle and stress I really don't need, but I'd rather he didn't if we didn't need to, as we are struggling for money as it is as I claim disability benefits. But he is currently working away and I'm having to deal with this by myself, and i'm not really clued up in the technical side of things, and like I said all the stuff on the newbie thread confuses me! I've read so many defence statements, and I don't think any really apply to me? I've also read I need to prepare witness statements etc and attend court, and this is making me really unwell. I received a CCJ when I was younger, and I've recently been trying really hard to get my credit rating back up, I've only just succeeded at this when this came through the post.

The letter is dated the 9th of November, and I submitted my AOS on the 14th, and it was received on the 15th.

I have a link to a copy of the CCC with the POC on, but I can't upload it so unsure what to do there.. so I will type the details below. I hope all of this makes sense and again, sorry for being so dumb. Thankyou!

Defendant

Particulars of claim

Claim for monies relating to a Parking Charge for parking in a private car park managed by the Claimant in breach of the terms + conditions (T+Cs). Drivers are allowed to park in accordance with T+Cs of use. ANPR cameras and/or manual patrols are used to monitor vehicles entering + exiting the site.

Debt + damages claimed the sum of £170.00
Violation date: 30/11/2017
Time in: 19:23 Time out: 20:47
PCN ref: Ref **********
Car registration no: *******
Car Park - Nisa Peterborough

Total due - £170.00
(Ref: ce-service.co.uk or Tel: 01158225020)

The claimant claims the sum of £182.78 for monies relating to a parking charge per above including 12.78 interest pursuant to S.69 of the County Courts Act 1984
Rate 8.00% pa from dates above to 8/11/2018
Same Rate to Judgment or (sooner) payment
Daily rate to Judgment - 0.04
Total debt and interest due - £182.78

Signed Civil Enforcement Limited (Claimants Legal Representative)

Amount Claims £182.78
Court Fee £25.00
Legal representatives costs £50.00
Total Amount £257.78
«13

Comments

  • The_Deep
    The_Deep Posts: 16,830 Forumite
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    £257 is massively more than the law allows. They know this and their claim is undoubtedly fraudulent. If they are not using solicitors the most a judge is likely to award them if they won, is not likely to exceed £150, including court fees.

    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of alleged contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and others have already been named and shamed in the House of Commons as have Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each week, hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned. They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    The problem has become so widespread that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. It has even been suggested that some of these companies have links with organised crime.

    Watch the video of the Second Reading and committee stage in the House of Commons recently. MPs have a very low opinion of this industry.

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-07-19/debates/2b90805c-bff8-4707-8bdc-b0bfae5a7ad5/Parking(CodeOfPractice)Bill(FirstSitting)

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by in the not too distant future..
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
  • KeithP
    KeithP Posts: 37,638 Forumite
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    bubsxo wrote: »
    I have received a CCC dated 09/11/2018...
    With a Claim Issue Date of 9th November, and having done the Acknowledgement of Service in a timely manner, you have until 4pm on Wednesday 12th December 2018 to file your Defence.

    That's over three weeks. Loads of time to produce a perfect Defence, but don't leave it to the very last minute.


    When you are happy with the content, your Defence should be filed via email as described here:

    1) Print your Defence.
    2) Sign it and date it.
    3) Scan the signed document back in and save it as a pdf.
    4) Send that pdf as an email attachment to CCBCAQ@Justice.gov.uk
    5) Just put the claim number and the word Defence in the email title, and in the body of the email something like 'Please find my Defence attached'.
    6) Log into MCOL after a few days to see if the Claim is marked "defended". If not chase the CCBC until it is.
    7) Wait for your Directions Questionnaire and then re-read post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread to find out exactly what to do with it.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,671 Forumite
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    edited 20 November 2018 at 12:40AM
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    Looks like they are saying the car was there for over a hour, but you've told us:
    I have received a CCC dated 09/11/2018 for the sum of £200+ from CEL regarding a PCN I apparently received on the 30th November 2017 for parking in a local NISA car park. I am the registered keeper of the vehicle, which is a motability car, however someone else is insured to drive this also, and being so long ago I simply can't remember who was driving at the time. I rarely go out at night alone, and according to this letter it was after 7pm so I find it hard to believe it was me at the time?

    You MUST have been in the car (passenger or driver) as it is a Motability vehicle that can only be used for your benefit, not for other trips, unless the driver was, say, fetching some medication or provisions for you/on your behalf which is OK under the Motability rules.

    You need to look at other CEL defences you can find loads of recent ones if you search for these keywords, using ADVANCED SEARCH (and change to show results as posts):

    defence true abuse of process

    Do that advanced search exactly as I said, NOT for threads... Search for POSTS.

    And so you can then use one of those defences and add in a paragraph that states you are disabled under the meaning in the Equality Act 2010, and that the Claimant 'knew or should have known' this fact and avoided issuing a PCN to the car because it's clearly flagged on DVLA data records as a Motability vehicle which has a specific meaning, and can ONLY be used by disabled people with high level mobility needs.

    And disabled people who qualify for the high level of need that results in a Motability vehicle need more time to go about daily life, which means the service provider had a legal duty under statute (the EA 2010 itself, and the statutory EHRC Code of Practice) to make a reasonable adjustment, which does not stop at just painting a disabled bay or removing physical barriers to access, but also includes making adjustments to fixed time limits that would cause a disabled person loss, disadvantage or detriment.

    And there is also the question of the resulting illegal harassment of debt demands (had they been received, which they were not, due to postal issues at home) which are not appropriate at all, given the disability that the Claimant knew about from the DVLA Motability flag, which is unequivocal in its meaning and message to a parking firm. This is not a car that can be used for any other purpose, albeit other drivers can drive the car but only when with the disabled person or acting for them on an errand, all of which may take more time than a quick trip for an able bodied person.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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  • bubsxo
    bubsxo Posts: 11 Forumite
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    Hi Coupon Mad,

    Thanks very much for your help.

    Hows this for a start? I'm still so confused by all the technical stuff so I could be way off, and I'm expecting this to be all wrong..

    Your help is massively appreciated.

    Thanks again.

    IN THE COUNTY COURT

    CLAIM No: xxxxxxxxxx

    BETWEEN:

    Civil Enforcement Ltd (Claimant)

    -and-

    (Defendant)

    ________________________________________
    DEFENCE
    ________________________________________

    1. The Defendant denies that the Claimant is entitled to relief in the sum claimed, or at all.

    2. The Particulars of Claim are sparse. There is no information regarding the alleged contract, what the terms on signage actually said on the material date, or what the alleged breach was, or why/how the Claimant purports that the registered keeper is liable, given the facts that this Claimant has failed to evidence the identity of the driver and they do not use the keeper liability provisions in the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (the 'POFA').

    2.1. Further, the Claim Form issued was not correctly filed under the Practice Direction, as it was not signed by any legal person but signed/printed as a company name only: “Civil Enforcement Limited” (Claimant’s Legal Representative).

    3. The facts are that the vehicle, registration xxxx xxx, of which the Defendant is the registered keeper is a Motability vehicle which more than one person is authorised and insured to drive to fetch medication and/or provisions for the defendant. The defendant is disabled under the meaning in the Equality Act 2010, and the Claimant should have known this fact and avoided issuing a PCN to the car, as it is clearly flagged on DVLA data records as a Motability vehicle which has a specific meaning, and can only be used by disabled people with high level mobility needs. Disabled people who qualify for the high level of need that results in a Motability vehicle need more time to go about daily life, which means the claimant had a legal duty under statute (EA 2010, and the statutory EHRC Code of Practice) to make a reasonable adjustment, which does not stop at just painting a disabled bay or removing physical barriers to access, but also includes making adjustments to fixed time limits that would cause a disabled person loss, disadvantage or detriment.

    4. Due to the sparseness of the particulars, it is unclear as to what legal basis the claim is brought, whether for breach of contract, contractual liability, or trespass. It is not known whether the Claimant is suggesting that the vehicle was 'unauthorised' or allegedly overstayed an arbitrary time period.

    4.1. However, it is denied that the vehicle was - by any reasonable interpretation - unauthorised, or that the Defendant, or any driver of the vehicle, entered into any contractual agreement with the Claimant, whether express, implied, or by conduct.

    5. The Claimant is likely to rely upon the completely different Supreme Court case of ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67. However, the Defendant avers that decision confirms the assertion that this charge is unconscionable, given the facts. To quote from the decision in Beavis:

    Para 199: ''What matters is that a charge of the order of £85 [...] is an understandable ingredient of a scheme serving legitimate interests. Customers using the car park agree to the scheme by doing so.''

    Para 205: ''The requirement of good faith in this context is one of fair and open dealing. Openness requires that the terms should be expressed fully, clearly and legibly, containing no concealed pitfalls or traps. Appropriate prominence should be given to terms which might operate disadvantageously to the customer.''

    6. By contrast, this penalty represents neither a necessary deterrent, nor an understandable ingredient of a scheme serving legitimate interests, and the Beavis case is distinguished.

    7. The POFA states that the maximum sum that may be potentially recovered from the keeper (subject to full compliance by the parking operator, which is not the case) is the charge stated on the Notice to Keeper, in this case £100. This claim attempts nearly triple recovery by adding purported but unsupported damages, admin, debt collector or other costs, which the Defendant submits have not actually been incurred at all. The Defendant avers that this inflation of the considered amount to some £260 is a gross abuse of process.

    8. In summary, it is the Defendant's position that the claim discloses no cause of action, is without merit, and has no real prospect of success. Accordingly, the Court is invited to strike out the claim of its own initiative, using its case management powers pursuant to CPR 3.4.

    I believe the facts contained in this Defence are true.



    signed..............................

    date...............
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,671 Forumite
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    edited 22 November 2018 at 2:27AM
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    I think you are just missing the usual point that always talks about the Claimant not have any standing; i.e. not being the landowner nor showing that they are authorised to make contracts with drivers in their own name and pursue the matter in the courts.

    I would add another Beavis case quote here and a bit more:
    5. The Claimant is likely to rely upon the completely different Supreme Court case of ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67. However, the Defendant avers that decision confirms the assertion that this charge is unconscionable, given the facts. To quote from the decision in Beavis:

    Para 199: ''What matters is that a charge of the order of £85 [...] is an understandable ingredient of a scheme serving legitimate interests. Customers using the car park agree to the scheme by doing so.''

    Para 205: ''The requirement of good faith in this context is one of fair and open dealing. Openness requires that the terms should be expressed fully, clearly and legibly, containing no concealed pitfalls or traps. Appropriate prominence should be given to terms which might operate disadvantageously to the customer.''

    Para 107: ''...in our opinion the term imposing the £85 was not unfair. The term does not exclude any right which the consumer may be said to enjoy under the general law or by statute.''

    6. By contrast, this penalty represents neither a necessary deterrent, nor an understandable ingredient of a scheme serving legitimate interests, and it does (in the Defendant's case) operate disadvantageously and actively interferes with and restricts the various disability rights which this consumer may be said to enjoy under the general law or by statute. The test of good faith is not met and with an absence of 'fair and open dealing' and a specifically illegal breach of the 'indirect' discrimination aspect of the EA 2010, this charge has no merit and the Beavis case is fully distinguished.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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  • KeithP
    KeithP Posts: 37,638 Forumite
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    I think paragraph 3 is giving out a mixed message.

    Firstly, you rightly say that the car can be used by other drivers for running errands on behalf of the RK. To me that implies that the RK might not have been present at the time of the incident.

    Then you go on to talk about extra time being needed - as allowed for in EA2010. Surely that extra time is only applicable if the RK is present?

    I can imagine a judge scratching his head and wondering whether or not the RK is driving, or even present.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,671 Forumite
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    Yes, maybe reduce the definition of a Motability vehicle.
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  • bubsxo
    bubsxo Posts: 11 Forumite
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    Is this any better?

    Thanks

    IN THE COUNTY COURT

    CLAIM No: xxxxxxxxxx

    BETWEEN:

    Civil Enforcement Ltd (Claimant)

    -and-

    l (Defendant)

    ________________________________________
    DEFENCE
    ________________________________________

    1. The Defendant denies that the Claimant is entitled to relief in the sum claimed, or at all.

    2. The Particulars of Claim are sparse. There is no information regarding the alleged contract, what the terms on signage actually said on the material date, or what the alleged breach was, or why/how the Claimant purports that the registered keeper is liable, given the facts that this Claimant has failed to evidence the identity of the driver and they do not use the keeper liability provisions in the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (the 'POFA').

    2.1. Further, the Claim Form issued was not correctly filed under the Practice Direction, as it was not signed by any legal person but signed/printed as a company name only: “Civil Enforcement Limited” (Claimant’s Legal Representative).

    3. The facts are that the vehicle, registration xxxx xxx, of which the Defendant is the registered keeper is a Motability vehicle. The defendant is disabled under the meaning in the Equality Act 2010, and the Claimant should have known this fact and avoided issuing a PCN to the car, because it's clearly flagged on DVLA data records as a Motability vehicle which has a specific meaning, and can only be used by disabled people with high level mobility needs. Disabled people who qualify for the high level of need that results in a Mot ability vehicle need more time to go about daily life, which means the claimant had a legal duty under statute (the EA 2010 itself, and the statutory EHRC Code of Practice) to make a reasonable adjustment, which does not stop at just painting a disabled bay or removing physical barriers to access, but also includes making adjustments to fixed time limits that would cause a disabled person loss, disadvantage or detriment.

    4. Due to the sparseness of the particulars, it is unclear as to what legal basis the claim is brought, whether for breach of contract, contractual liability, or trespass. It is not known whether the Claimant is suggesting that the vehicle, at all material times at this location being used by authorised gym members, was 'unauthorised' or allegedly overstayed an arbitrary time period.

    4.1. However, it is denied that the vehicle was - by any reasonable interpretation - unauthorised, or that the Defendant, or any driver of the vehicle, entered into any contractual agreement with the Claimant, whether express, implied, or by conduct.

    5. The Claimant is likely to rely upon the completely different Supreme Court case of ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67. However, the Defendant avers that decision confirms the assertion that this charge is unconscionable, given the facts. To quote from the decision in Beavis:

    Para 199: ''What matters is that a charge of the order of £85 [...] is an understandable ingredient of a scheme serving legitimate interests. Customers using the car park agree to the scheme by doing so.''

    Para 205: ''The requirement of good faith in this context is one of fair and open dealing. Openness requires that the terms should be expressed fully, clearly and legibly, containing no concealed pitfalls or traps. Appropriate prominence should be given to terms which might operate disadvantageously to the customer.''

    Para 107: ''...in our opinion the term imposing the £85 was not unfair. The term does not exclude any right which the consumer may be said to enjoy under the general law or by statute.''

    6. By contrast, this penalty represents neither a necessary deterrent, nor an understandable ingredient of a scheme serving legitimate interests, and it does (in the Defendant's case) operate disadvantageously and actively interferes with and restricts the various disability rights which this consumer may be said to enjoy under the general law or by statute. The test of good faith is not met and with an absence of 'fair and open dealing' and a specifically illegal breach of the 'indirect' discrimination aspect of the EA 2010, this charge has no merit and the Beavis case is fully distinguished.


    7. The POFA states that the maximum sum that may be potentially recovered from the keeper (subject to full compliance by the parking operator, which is not the case) is the charge stated on the Notice to Keeper, in this case £100. This claim attempts more than triple recovery by adding purported but unsupported damages, admin, debt collector or other costs, which the Defendant submits have not actually been incurred at all. The Defendant avers that this inflation of the considered amount to some £260 is a gross abuse of process.


    8. In summary, it is the Defendant's position that the claim discloses no cause of action, is without merit, and has no real prospect of success. Accordingly, the Court is invited to strike out the claim of its own initiative, using its case management powers pursuant to CPR 3.4.

    I believe the facts contained in this Defence are true.



    signed..............................

    date...............
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,671 Forumite
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    You are still missing the point I said was missing.
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  • tboo
    tboo Posts: 1,379 Forumite
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    bubsxo wrote: »
    4. Due to the sparseness of the particulars, it is unclear as to what legal basis the claim is brought, whether for breach of contract, contractual liability, or trespass. It is not known whether the Claimant is suggesting that the vehicle was 'unauthorised' or allegedly overstayed an arbitrary time period.
    above from post 5

    bubsxo wrote: »
    4. Due to the sparseness of the particulars, it is unclear as to what legal basis the claim is brought, whether for breach of contract, contractual liability, or trespass. It is not known whether the Claimant is suggesting that the vehicle, at all material times at this location being used by authorised gym members, was 'unauthorised' or allegedly overstayed an arbitrary time period.

    from post 9 which is stating that the parking is for gym members so needs correcting
    “You’re only here for a short visit.
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