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LBC Gladstones Uni Parking Ticket - What next?

Hi All,

I have been following the newbies guide up to this stage and now it seems I must start my own thread.

Briefly, my son went to visit friends at university back in March 18 and they told him to park in their allocated space. When he left he had a PCN for failing to display a valid parking permit. Since then we have ignored everything until receiving a LBC in November. We asked Gladstones to pause proceedings while we gathered info from a SAR sent to UKCPM.

Gladstones have extended the PAP until 7th January and we have received info back from UKCPM regarding the SAR.

The friends he visited were Canadian and have since returned to Canada. It is unlikely they will have any documentation regarding their allocated space but it has been asked for.

Chronology

March 2018 - PCN issued.
Up To Nov 2018 - All letters from Gladstones requesting payment ignored.
16 Nov 18 - Letter Before Claim
03 Dec 18 - Request to pause proceedings sent to Gladstones.
06 Dec 18 - Sar sent to UKCPM
19 Dec 18 - Letter received from Gladstones postponing PAP until 7 Jan 19.
19 Dec 18 - Letter received from UKCPM in response to SAR.


Our response to LBC letter from Gladstones.

[FONT=&quot]Dear Sir / Madam,
This letter is in regards to the 'Letter Before Claim' letter I have received on about 16 November 2018 relating to the reference details above.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
I have sent a SAR to your client ‘UK Car Park Management’ on 06/12/2018. In doing so I strongly request a restriction of data processing regarding my case and that my case in question be put on hold. I understand that your client has 6 years from the date of the alleged parking event and therefore do not consider that time is of the essence regarding this case.

Having my case put on hold will allow sufficient time for me to read the data and documents expected to be received from the SAR and subsequently re-start the PAP 30-day period.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I believe if you are to proceed with the claim without having allowed sufficient time following a response to the SAR mentioned above, that this will breach the PAP along with the GDPR/DPA.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]See below my address for service along with your reference number: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]101***.3****

[/FONT] [/FONT]
Our SAR to UKCPM

[FONT=&quot]Dear Sir or Madam[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Subject access request (Data Protection Act 2018 / General Data Protection Regulations (GDPR))[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I am writing to you in your capacity as data protection officer for your company – UK Car Park Management. I have reason to believe you hold personal data on myself as a vehicle I own and am the registered keeper for visits car parking sites managed by your company. It should be noted that contrary to article 13 of GDPR legislation no privacy information was provided to myself, the data subject, at the time of collection. I am therefore compelled into making this request for access to personal data pursuant to Article 15 of the General Data Protection Regulation.

The vehicle in question is a Vehicle Model with VRM: **** ***

I have attached a copy of the V5 document to prove I am the registered keeper.

I would like you to be aware at the outset, that I anticipate a reply to my request within one month as required under Article 12, failing which I will be forwarding my inquiry with a letter of complaint to the Information Commissioners Office (ICO).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Please supply the data about me that I am entitled to under data protection law relating to myself.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Please include [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]- The identity of where the location is and records of the site map of signs and what the terms were. Include evidence and file notes, including the ticketer's own notebook and/or electronic upload of notes about the alleged contravention.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]- A close up of the signs in question from the day in question.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]- All letters sent to me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]- Copies of all letters and the PCN, and all case file notes.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]- Any sharing of DVLA data with other entities including debt collectors and any other company or person, with copies of all forms & letters that include my car's data in any form.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]- Copies of all evidence being relied upon including all photos taken on the alleged date of this supposed parking event.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]- Any evidence that you have paid a debt collector. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]- A full copy of the PCN, NTK.
- A list of all PCNs you consider are outstanding against this VRN **** ***. (Any claim must be for all PCNs in one claim, not several separate claims.)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]- All case status updates and pages, showing whether the updates were automatic or by human intervention.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If you need any more data from me to confirm my identity please let me know as soon as possible. It may be helpful for you to know that data protection law requires you to respond to a request for data within one calendar month.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If you do not normally deal with these requests, please pass this letter to your Data Protection Officer, or relevant staff member. If you need advice on dealing with this request, the Information Commissioner’s Office can assist you. Its website is ico.org.uk or it can be contacted on 0303 123 1113.[/FONT]


Gladstones Reply

A standard letter stating that they will extend PAP until 7 Jan and that they can demonstrate compelling legitimate grounds for processing data.


UKCPM Reply

Original PCN letter dated 11 April 2018
Very dark photos of the vehicle on PCN. Number plate not legible.
Copy of my SAR to them.
Copy of V% cover sent to them.
5 other photos of the car. 3 showing windscreen, one with PCN attached. 2 showing clearer images of number plate.
1 photo showing the sign but not very legible due to poor quality of photo.
A page showing their activity regarding the PCN. Reminder sent, Flagged for debt recovery etc.


Personally the photos of the car could have been taken anywhere as they are close up at night and do not show the location of the vehicle at the time. Is this a reasonable consideration?


What Next?

So, now I believe we need to form a defence as we have not received anything further but expect a MCOL or court date soon after 7 Jan 19.

All advice would be greatly welcomed. I appreciate you taking the time to read through and hopefully offering some information on how best to proceed now.

Regards
«1

Comments

  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 41,256
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    You've done a pretty good job of this so far. It's a case of seeing what comes through from Gladstones and go from there. I can't believe that you've not done so, given your comprehensive action so far, but just a reminder that the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #2 takes you right through from LBC to the actual hearing (and all points between).

    Come back if or when the next stage kicks in and you want any advice - but you're doing pretty well on your own so far.

    Have you tried a complaint to the Uni to see if they will help?
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

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  • Freddieab
    Freddieab Posts: 7 Forumite
    edited 19 March 2019 at 9:47PM
    Hi, I have now received a claim form with an issue date of 25 Fe 2019. The AoS has been sent.


    Please find below my first draft defence. Any advice will be welcomed.



    I have not named the driver but should I disclose that I know who it was? In doing so I can not include the information regarding permission to park from the tennant.



    I am not allowed to post links to photos but they include current damaged sinage at entrance, current worn sinage near parking bay and sinage on date in question as provided by UKCPM as result of SAR. Their own image is not very clear even being illuminated by a vehicle headlight.





    IN THE COUNTY COURT

    CLAIM No: xxxxxxxxxx

    BETWEEN:

    UK CAR PARK MANAGEMENT LTD (Claimant)

    -and-

    xxxxxxxxxxxx (Defendant)

    ________________________________________
    DEFENCE
    ________________________________________

    1. The Defendant denies that the Claimant is entitled to relief in the sum claimed, or at all.

    2. The facts are that the vehicle, registration XXXX, of which the Defendant is the registered keeper, was parked on the material date in a bay at a location claimed to be xxxxx in breach of terms of parking stipulated on the sinage.
    The driver of the vehicle had been invited to visit friends from Canada who were enrolled at the University of xxxxx and were renting a property at the location referred to previously. They permitted him to park in a particular bay that they claimed was theirs as part of the property rental.

    3. The Particulars of Claim state that the Defendant was the registered keeper and/or the driver of the vehicle. These assertions indicate that the Claimant has failed to identify a Cause of Action, and is simply offering a menu of choices. As such, the Claim fails to comply with Civil Procedure Rule 16.4, or with Civil Practice Direction 16, paras. 7.3 to 7.5. Further, the particulars of the claim do not meet the requirements of Practice Direction 16 7.5 as there is nothing which specifies how the terms were breached.


    4. On the day in question and the defendant states that there was more than one person insured on the car at the time.

    5. The Defendant has no liability as he is the Keeper of the vehicle, and UKCPM has failed to comply with the strict provisions of PoFA 2012 Section 4 to hold anyone other than the driver liable for the charges.

    a) The driver has not been evidenced on any occasion.

    b) There is no presumption in law that the keeper was the driver and nor is a keeper obliged to name the driver to a private parking firm. PATAS and POPLA Lead Adjudicator and barrister, Henry Michael Greenslade, clarified that with regards to keeper liability in the POPLA Annual Report 2015: "There is no ‘reasonable presumption’ in law that the registered keeper of a vehicle is the driver and operators should never suggest anything of the sort".


    6. Due to the sparseness of the particulars, it is unclear as to what legal basis the claim is brought, whether for breach of contract, contractual liability, or trespass. However, it is denied that the Defendant, or any driver of the vehicle, entered into any contractual agreement with the Claimant, whether express, implied, or by conduct.

    7. The claimants own photographic evidence shows the location to be very poorly lit, if not almost completely dark. The Claimants own photographs of the signage shows just how unclear they are and how difficult to read they are, even with the benefit of what appears to be a torch or vehicle headlights.

    8. The Defendant took photographs of UKCPM signage at what is believed to be the location in question after receiving the claim form. These photos show the current poor condition of the signs in the parking locations and at the entrance and possibly suggest poor upkeep. The terms on the Claimant's signage are also displayed in a font which is too small to be read from a vehicle, and is in such a position that anyone attempting to read it would be unable to do so easily. Further the signs are not illuminated and so impossible to read at night when the car was parked. It is therefore denied that the Claimant's signage is capable of creating a legally binding contract.

    9. The Claimant is put to strict proof that it has sufficient proprietary interest in the land, or that it has the necessary authorisation from the landowner to issue parking charge notices, and to pursue payment by means of litigation.

    10. The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4, at Section 4(5) states that the maximum sum that may be recovered from the keeper is the charge stated on the Notice to Keeper, in this case £100. The claim includes an additional £60 referred to as ‘Contractual Costs’, for which no calculation or explanation is given, and which appears to be an attempt at double recovery.

    11. Alternatively, even if there was a contract, the provision requiring payment of £171.23 including interest is unenforceable as an unfair term contrary to the Consumer Rights Act 2015. It is an abuse of process for the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover as it is a cost to the business, therefore, cannot be reclaimed twice.

    11. In summary, it is the Defendant's position that the claim discloses no cause of action, is without merit, and has no real prospect of success. Accordingly, the Court is invited to strike out the claim of its own initiative, using its case management powers pursuant to CPR 3.4.

    Statement of Truth:

    I believe that the facts stated in this Defence are true.

    Name XXX
    Signature XXX
    Date XXX



  • KeithP
    KeithP Posts: 37,432
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    Freddieab wrote: »
    Hi, I have now received a claim form with an issue date of 25 Fe 2019. The AoS has been sent.
    I am going to assume you did the Acknowledgement of Service before Monday 18th March. Please confirm.


    With a Claim Issue Date of 25th February, and having done the Acknowledgement of Service in a timely manner, you have until 4pm on Monday 1st April 2019 to file your Defence.

    That's nearly two weeks away. Loads of time to produce a Defence, and it's good to see that you are not leaving it to the very last minute.


    When you are happy with the content, your Defence should be filed via email as suggested here:
      Print your Defence.
    1. Sign it and date it.
    2. Scan the signed document back in and save it as a pdf.
    3. Send that pdf as an email attachment to CCBCAQ@Justice.gov.uk
    4. Just put the claim number and the word Defence in the email title, and in the body of the email something like 'Please find my Defence attached'.
    5. Log into MCOL after a few days to see if the Claim is marked "defended". If not chase the CCBC until it is.
    6. Do not be surprised to receive a copy of the Claimant's Directions Questionnaire, they are just trying to put you under pressure.
    7. Wait for your DQ from the CCBC, or download one from the internet, and then re-read post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread to find out exactly what to do with it.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 130,639
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    This needs to be more definite:
    They permitted him to park in a particular bay that they claimed was theirs as part of the property rental.

    Maybe:
    They permitted the driver to park in a particular bay allocated to them as part of the property rental. The ‘land’ which forms the basis of the current claim consists of a relatively small number of poorly marked ‘private land’ parking spaces located amongst those forming a much larger University car park with several differing rules. Given this lack of clarity regarding how or where an authorised visitor is, or is not, allowed to park, no contract can be construed from the Claimant's signage, under the contra proferentem principle.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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  • Le_Kirk
    Le_Kirk Posts: 22,165
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    breach of terms of parking stipulated on the sinage.
    Should be: -
    breach of terms of parking stipulated on the signage.
  • KeithP - Acknowledgement of Service was sent on around 28/02/2019.


    Coupon-mad - Thank you. Paragraph updated.


    Le_Kirk - Thanks. Amended.
  • Can anyone suggest any other amendments that may be needed? Alternatively does this seem to be a credible defence.


    The keeper is also the driver, so if asked in court I guess it should be admitted.


    As the students are now in Canada I can only produce an email from them in the form of a statement that they gave permission.









    DEFENCE
    ________________________________________

    1. The Defendant denies that the Claimant is entitled to relief in the sum claimed, or at all.

    2. The facts are that the vehicle, registration XXXX, of which the Defendant is the registered keeper, was parked on the material date in a bay at a location claimed to be xxxxx in breach of terms of parking stipulated on the signage. The driver of the vehicle had been invited to visit friends from Canada who were enrolled at the University of xxxxx and were renting a property at the location referred to previously. They permitted the driver to park in a particular bay allocated to them as part of the property rental. The ‘land’ which forms the basis of the current claim consists of a relatively small number of poorly marked parking spaces. Given this lack of clarity regarding how or where an authorised visitor is, or is not, allowed to park, no contract can be construed from the Claimant's signage, under the contra proferentem principle.

    3. The Particulars of Claim state that the Defendant was the registered keeper and/or the driver of the vehicle. These assertions indicate that the Claimant has failed to identify a Cause of Action, and is simply offering a menu of choices. As such, the Claim fails to comply with Civil Procedure Rule 16.4, or with Civil Practice Direction 16, paras. 7.3 to 7.5. Further, the particulars of the claim do not meet the requirements of Practice Direction 16 7.5 as there is nothing which specifies how the terms were breached.


    4. On the day in question and the defendant states that there was more than one person insured on the car at the time.

    5. The Defendant has no liability as he is the Keeper of the vehicle, and UKCPM has failed to comply with the strict provisions of PoFA 2012 Section 4 to hold anyone other than the driver liable for the charges.

    a) The driver has not been evidenced on any occasion.

    b) There is no presumption in law that the keeper was the driver and nor is a keeper obliged to name the driver to a private parking firm. PATAS and POPLA Lead Adjudicator and barrister, Henry Michael Greenslade, clarified that with regards to keeper liability in the POPLA Annual Report 2015: "There is no ‘reasonable presumption’ in law that the registered keeper of a vehicle is the driver and operators should never suggest anything of the sort".


    6. Due to the sparseness of the particulars, it is unclear as to what legal basis the claim is brought, whether for breach of contract, contractual liability, or trespass. However, it is denied that the Defendant, or any driver of the vehicle, entered into any contractual agreement with the Claimant, whether express, implied, or by conduct.

    7. The claimants own photographic evidence shows the location to be very poorly lit, if not almost completely dark. The Claimants own photographs of the signage shows just how unclear they are and how difficult to read they are, even with the benefit of what appears to be a torch or vehicle headlights.

    8. The Defendant took photographs of UKCPM signage at what is believed to be the location in question after receiving the claim form. These photos show the current poor condition of the signs in the parking locations and at the entrance and possibly suggest poor upkeep. The terms on the Claimant's signage are also displayed in a font which is too small to be read from a vehicle, and is in such a position that anyone attempting to read it would be unable to do so easily. Further the signs are not illuminated and so impossible to read at night when the car was parked. It is therefore denied that the Claimant's signage is capable of creating a legally binding contract.

    9. The Claimant is put to strict proof that it has sufficient proprietary interest in the land, or that it has the necessary authorisation from the landowner to issue parking charge notices, and to pursue payment by means of litigation.

    10. The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4, at Section 4(5) states that the maximum sum that may be recovered from the keeper is the charge stated on the Notice to Keeper, in this case £100. The claim includes an additional £60 referred to as ‘Contractual Costs’, for which no calculation or explanation is given, and which appears to be an attempt at double recovery.

    11. Alternatively, even if there was a contract, the provision requiring payment of £171.23 including interest is unenforceable as an unfair term contrary to the Consumer Rights Act 2015. It is an abuse of process for the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover as it is a cost to the business, therefore, cannot be reclaimed twice.

    11. In summary, it is the Defendant's position that the claim discloses no cause of action, is without merit, and has no real prospect of success. Accordingly, the Court is invited to strike out the claim of its own initiative, using its case management powers pursuant to CPR 3.4.

    Statement of Truth:

    I believe that the facts stated in this Defence are true.
  • Redx
    Redx Posts: 38,084
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    if you are going to be using POFA then no admissions as to who was driving , anywhere at all, and certainly not on a public forums such as MSE


    the private members here do not care about who was driving, but any defence is either using POFA or it isnt , there is no in between


    criminals plead NOT GUILTY all the time , it is the job of the prosecution to prove the guilt of the person that was charged


    civil cases are no different
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 130,639
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    That defence looks fine, good to email to the CCBCAQ email. :)
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  • Freddieab
    Freddieab Posts: 7 Forumite
    edited 31 March 2019 at 2:49PM
    Hi, Last couple of quick questions,

    Should I remove the lines in bold from this paragraph? I need to send this by 4pm tomorrow and I think these lines suggest the keeper may know who was driving.

    Also, do I need to send my photographs with my defence at the same time?


    2. The facts are that the vehicle, registration XXXX, of which the Defendant is the registered keeper, was parked on the material date in a bay at a location claimed to be xxxxx in breach of terms of parking stipulated on the signage. The driver of the vehicle had been invited to visit friends from Canada who were enrolled at the University of xxxxx and were renting a property at the location referred to previously.They permitted the driver to park in a particular bay allocated to them as part of the property rental. The ‘land’ which forms the basis of the current claim consists of a relatively small number of poorly marked parking spaces. Given this lack of clarity regarding how or where an authorised visitor is, or is not, allowed to park, no contract can be construed from the Claimant's signage, under the contra proferentem principle.


    Thanks for all the help so far.
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