Green, ethical, energy issues in the news

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  • zeupater
    zeupater Posts: 5,355 Forumite
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    Martyn1981 wrote: »
    Waffling on for too long, I missed the breaking news:

    Hitachi set to cancel plans for £16bn nuclear power station in Wales
    Hi

    Of course, that looks like another couple of GW of additional reliance on gas powered backup generation capacity and associated consumption during the transition phase with an almost inevitable increase in the need for strategic gas reserves of whatever kind! .... but if we keep our fingers crossed then we can be assured that the law of 'people power' dictates that everything will be okay! ... ;):whistle::shhh:

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    B)
  • Coastalwatch
    Coastalwatch Posts: 3,138 Forumite
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    edited 11 January 2019 at 9:46PM
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    Martyn1981 wrote: »
    Waffling on for too long, I missed the breaking news:

    Hitachi set to cancel plans for £16bn nuclear power station in Wales


    I wonder whether that now puts increased pressure on EDF to deliver Sizewell C in ten years time or is it an indication that Nuclear is now to expensive an option to consider however desperate we may eventually become!
    Still it might just force our politicians to take matters seriously and incentivise efforts towards alternative energy forms. After all we've experienced an arms race for decades so perhaps some of those brains could now be deployed on more pressing matters in the shape of renewable energies and storage!


    On your marks, get set....................!
    East coast, lat 51.97. 8.26kw SSE, 23° pitch + 0.59kw WSW vertical. Nissan Leaf plus Zappi charger and 2 x ASHP's. Givenergy 8.2 & 9.5 kWh batts, 2 x 3 kW ac inverters. Indra V2H . CoCharger Host, Interest in Ripple Energy & Abundance.
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,764 Forumite
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    edited 12 January 2019 at 8:53AM
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    zeupater wrote: »
    Hi

    I'm not going to play the circles game, you can win in your own mind if you want to, even if it means that the risk you're willing to accept is so dire ....

    What's brought me to this conclusion is the above referenced excerpt, the result of which is that the difference between risk mitigation and 'people power' is effectively irrelevant, other than the potential for the avoidable death of a considerable number of people alongside levels of economic chaos that would eclipse the worst imaginable result of brexit, but as you say, 'we aren't arguing over much at all' really .... I'd rather employ decades of experience to identify & manage risk, but then again, I've come across those that have simply kept their fingers crossed & been lucky in the short term ... if the required mitigation measures aren't employed let's all just hope that we're blessed with plenty of luck and everyone else respects our strategy & treats us nicely f it runs out!

    HTH
    Z

    Just to be clear Z, if you think I'm trying to 'win', then again I apologise for the way my comments may have come across.

    I fully understand that your position is based on risk, and that's why you support this approach.

    Mine is actually the same, but I feel that the fracking route is the greater risk. It really is important to me that you believe me (not my argument but why I'm arguing). I appreciate that you think I've come to the wrong conclusion, and of course you may be right, it's simply my conclusion. But it's one based on my heartfelt believe that fracking is a greater risk.

    This post is not an attempt to argue against you, and claim I'm right, or you are wrong, but on this matter I do think I'm right, and that you are wrong, but realise that you very strongly believe the opposite, which I fully accept. The fact that my position remains the same is not a dismissal of your points of view, they have given me a lot to think about going forward.

    The important thing here I think is that we are both clearly arguing for a position that we both believe best leads to the best outcome. [Apologies for the poor construction there.]

    Sadly, I think my position is heavily biased by my lack of trust in the current government's position following many of its policy decisions on the various matters surrounding this issue. If I thought that the promotion of FF gas mitigation wouldn't suffer from a pro-fracking decision, then I'd be far more accepting of your big picture risk approach.

    [Edit - That may have come out wrong. I'm fully accepting of your approach to risk management, I just meant on this particular issue, if government policies don't themselves mitigate the risk. M.]

    I think you sum it up well about luck. That shouldn't be our fall back, and I think, perhaps, maybe, just about, you may have won me over on the need for fracking if the government doesn't strengthen policies elsewhere - I'm a bit shocked at that realisation, which has literally just come to me. I'm not at all immune to the risk argument you have steadfastly stuck to, I'd just like to see us eliminate/handle that risk in a different way.

    All the best.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW). Two A2A units for cleaner heating.

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,764 Forumite
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    edited 12 January 2019 at 9:01AM
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    zeupater wrote: »
    Hi

    Of course, that looks like another couple of GW of additional reliance on gas powered backup generation capacity and associated consumption during the transition phase with an almost inevitable increase in the need for strategic gas reserves of whatever kind! .... but if we keep our fingers crossed then we can be assured that the law of 'people power' dictates that everything will be okay! ... ;):whistle::shhh:

    HTH
    Z

    It certainly upsets the apple cart, but it might provoke more pro-RE action, with potentially lots of money left over for storage research and development.

    The Government had planned to invest £5bn directly, and I think (if I recall correctly) that could have brought the CfD down to a hoped for £70/MWh(ish). [Edit - Whilst I recall it, I can't find it, but I don't think I remember seeing anything lower(?)]

    So that sort of frees up £5bn during the build out phase and approx £18bn in subsidies.

    Now here comes the good news. The government is hoping to get 2-3GW of new off-shore wind in this years CfD auction from the allocated pot of £60m. Taking cf into account, that would get us approx 1/3 to 1/2 of the generation of Wylfa. Double or triple the off-shore wind pot to match Wylfa (on an annual basis) and we still have virtually all of that £23bn nuclear commitment left over.

    My thoughts, for what they are worth, is that if RE costs keep falling, then there's a strong argument to move away from new nuclear and invest in replacement RE and storage, but the also over-capacity, which if coupled with gas storage for longer term (days not hrs) excess management, might be very useful indeed.

    Something I was asking on Navitron a while back, which you may have picked up on, was the marginal cost of additional gas storage. I know that the investment in electrolysis / fuel cells is high, but enlarging storage capacity through the addition of more 'tanks', is not so bad.

    Timing wise, we may get lucky on this issue as progress moves on nicely (fingers crossed) into the start of the next decade.

    Your point about gas capacity is something I think I included a long time back when experimenting on where the HPC savings could be spent if we went with the 2017 off-shore wind prices v's HPC. The savings would allow for the construction of 3GW of gas capacity (about £1.5-3bn), and so long as we built more RE generation than the equivalent nuclear generation, then on an annual basis gas consumption would fall, but the additional capacity would be there for peaks, with the CAPEX covered by the subsidy savings, and OPEX covered by the leccy sales. Long term I'd hope that the gas fleet would be able to shift away from FF gas too.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW). Two A2A units for cleaner heating.

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,764 Forumite
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    I wonder whether that now puts increased pressure on EDF to deliver Sizewell C in ten years time or is it an indication that Nuclear is now to expensive an option to consider however desperate we may eventually become!
    Still it might just force our politicians to take matters seriously and incentivise efforts towards alternative energy forms. After all we've experienced an arms race for decades so perhaps some of those brains could now be deployed on more pressing matters in the shape of renewable energies and storage!


    On your marks, get set....................!

    I've lost track on SC. Last I heard its deployment had been priced into the HPC deal reducing the 2012 baseline price from £92.50/MWh down to £89.50/MWh (£100 in today's money), but that the only figure for SC discussed/mentioned was that it would have to be significantly cheaper than HPC, or something like that.

    I don't know how that stands now with HPC getting ever more expensive, compared to RE that will be deployed by or before its commissioning date, and the failure of Wylfa to find an acceptable price.

    I think I need a total reset on new-new-nuclear as so much has now changed since the HPC decisions of 2012 & 2015. Perhaps there is, or will be, a detailed article that attempts to set out the current position, now that the 'old' position seems to have stalled?
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW). Two A2A units for cleaner heating.

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,764 Forumite
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    There's so many RE stories now from all over the world that I get a bit swamped, and often just nod to facts and figures that would previously have blown my mind.

    But I thought this article on a large Aussie on-shore windfarm was interesting due to some figures that jumped out at me.

    New Victorian windfarm could provide 10% of state's energy

    That's pretty impressive as a start.
    The managing director of a company that plans to construct Victoria’s largest windfarm says the project will supply enough power to replace up to a third of the generation of the decommissioned Hazelwood power station at less than $50/MWh.

    Approx £28/MWh is also very impressive.
    “If you put that into the context of electricity market prices from Victoria which for the past two years have hovered around $80 to $120 per MW/h, you can see the significance of this project for driving down electricity prices for all Victorians.”

    Aus$50 v's $80-$120 is, dare I say that word again, impressive!
    “At $50/MWh — just 5 cents per kWh — the Golden Plains windfarm will produce power for less than the market cost of fuel alone for many coal and all gas power stations,” he said.

    Well that's damned (sorry) impressive.


    Lastly, for a country with an enormous CO2/capita, and a less than supportive government when it comes to RE/AGW, the people and states are doing a lot of [STRIKE]impr[/STRIKE] great work.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW). Two A2A units for cleaner heating.

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,764 Forumite
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    Missed this one completely - if nuclear power isn't the economical solution for the country that gets more (as a %) of it's leccy from nuclear than any other, then how does that bode for the rest of us?

    Bloomberg - France Would Save $44.5 Billion by Betting on Renewable Energy, Agency Says
    France will save 39 billion euros ($44.5 billion) if it refrains from building 15 new nuclear plants by 2060, and bets instead on renewable energy sources to replace its all its aging atomic facilities, a government agency said.

    France should spend 1.28 trillion euros over the next four decades, mostly on clean power production and storage capacities, networks, and imports, according to a report from the country’s environment ministry. If it does this, France would progressively shut down its 58 atomic plants and renewable energy would comprise 95 percent of its electricity output by 2060, up from 17 percent last year.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW). Two A2A units for cleaner heating.

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • michaels
    michaels Posts: 28,005 Forumite
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    Martyn1981 wrote: »
    Missed this one completely - if nuclear power isn't the economical solution for the country that gets more (as a %) of it's leccy from nuclear than any other, then how does that bode for the rest of us?

    Bloomberg - France Would Save $44.5 Billion by Betting on Renewable Energy, Agency Says

    Hmm - so we are all going to use leccy imports as a fall back...can't see any problem with that....
    I think....
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,764 Forumite
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    An item from this weeks Carbon Commentary:
    8, Direct air capture of CO2 (DAC). Two important events in the last few weeks. Carbon Engineering in Canada announced an investment from two oil majors, Chevron and Occidental (no figures provided). Climeworks in Zurich said it would be supplying captured CO2 from a new facility to a Coca-Cola bottling plant for use in fizzy water. Much scepticism remains about the future of extracting CO2 directly from air with many commentators stating that it theoretically ought to be much easier, and cheaper, to capture it from flue gas. Most of the evidence today, however, suggests that DAC will end up cheaper than CCS from exhaust gases. Carbon Engineering says that its CO2 will cost less than $100 a tonne at scale and this figure uses what I think are very high figures for the crucial input: the price of the heat to drive off the CO2 from the absorbent chemicals. The company claims that it then produces a gasoline substitute from electrolysed hydrogen and captured CO2 for ‘about 20%’ more than from fossil fuels today. Hydrogen is the dominant cost of making a synthetic fuel and as electrolysis from renewables continues to fall in price, H2 will become cheaper, eventually making fossil fuels uncompetitive. This is early days but Carbon Engineering and Climeworks are probably the two most important global companies in the fight to get to zero emissions as fast as possible.

    So some promising news/progress on a way to catch and store atmospheric CO2, or to produce fuel for tougher to solve transport problems (aircraft and long distance shipping).
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW). Two A2A units for cleaner heating.

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • michaels
    michaels Posts: 28,005 Forumite
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    Martyn1981 wrote: »
    An item from this weeks Carbon Commentary:



    So some promising news/progress on a way to catch and store atmospheric CO2, or to produce fuel for tougher to solve transport problems (aircraft and long distance shipping).

    If you produce a fuel that is purely made from hydrogen, carbon and oxygen then can it be burned 100% clean or will there always be NO and contaminants released?

    I am thinking that if the fuel is 'produced' using RE then when you do burn it rather than looking for max efficiency you could instead look for min harmful emissions so perhaps lower temps and pressures than the current cycles that produce NOs?
    I think....
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