Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@. Skimlinks & other affiliated links are turned on

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Jonamora
    • By Jonamora 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    • 1Posts
    • 0Thanks
    Jonamora
    Electric cars
    • #1
    • 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    Electric cars 24th Jan 17 at 5:11 PM
    Just wanted people's opinions on buying an electric car?

    Before long all cars will be electric and therfore is it best to sell petrol car at full value and invest in electric car.

    I don't want to start a new finance deals for 4 years and be complete but then left with and cat nobody wants or has resale value because all are electric.....thoughts

    Jonathan
Page 85
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 5th Jul 18, 6:49 AM
    • 9,666 Posts
    • 14,556 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Interesting episode on ultra capacitors from Fully Charged. The idea being that they can cope with a few seconds (perhaps 5s) of very high charge or discharge, so able to cope with hard acceleration/braking and complimenting the 'big battery' by doing the harsh part of EV driving.

    Skeleton Ultra Capacitors | Fully Charged
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Car 54
    • By Car 54 5th Jul 18, 8:39 AM
    • 4,696 Posts
    • 2,990 Thanks
    Car 54
    I assume you start and maintain all these nonsense arguments just to disrupt this thread.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981

    Sorry Martyn, I hadn't realised it was your personal thread - I was under the impression that it was an open forum.


    I shall try not to disrupt it with contrary or heretical views in future.
    Last edited by Car 54; 05-07-2018 at 10:55 AM.
    • Car 54
    • By Car 54 5th Jul 18, 8:41 AM
    • 4,696 Posts
    • 2,990 Thanks
    Car 54
    Interesting episode on ultra capacitors from Fully Charged. The idea being that they can cope with a few seconds (perhaps 5s) of very high charge or discharge, so able to cope with hard acceleration/braking and complimenting the 'big battery' by doing the harsh part of EV driving.

    Skeleton Ultra Capacitors | Fully Charged
    Originally posted by Martyn1981

    As in "My, what a big battery you are"?
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 5th Jul 18, 9:16 AM
    • 3,084 Posts
    • 1,425 Thanks
    NigeWick
    The S curve cometh? At a growth rate of approx 50%pa.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Likely to double that rate from this year?
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 5th Jul 18, 9:18 AM
    • 3,084 Posts
    • 1,425 Thanks
    NigeWick
    it points out that market penetration is higher in higher income countries.
    Originally posted by silverwhistle
    Like China?
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • silverwhistle
    • By silverwhistle 5th Jul 18, 11:34 AM
    • 2,739 Posts
    • 4,125 Thanks
    silverwhistle
    Well, they were talking about Europe and that market, and the contrast in penetration between north and south - basically based on per capita income! Although I have to say the past prevalence of Mercedes imported into Greece does rather beg a few questions.;-)

    But as I said in my post, they didn't say how they were addressing the issue.. They do really need to get their volumes up and prices down and introduce some basic models. Come on Dacia!
    • almillar
    • By almillar 5th Jul 18, 1:26 PM
    • 8,164 Posts
    • 3,369 Thanks
    almillar
    If the CHEMISTRY was all the same, then the components would all be the same and in the same ratios. So how come Tesla/Panasonic has a lower level of cobalt?
    OK, I'll change the statement for semantics - BASIC CHEMISTRY. Lithium Ion. I'm just trying to keep separate stuff we can currently drive, versus stuff that's not in production - there's a massive difference between the two.


    Lithium Ion was the 'basic chemistry' that made the EVs on our roads feasible today. It's a mature enough technology that it can even be put in bumpy fast moving things, and there's not much more to be extracted by it. Range is going up because of actual bigger batteries, tweaks to the innards of the cells (cobalt etc), and battery management. There's more to go, but not much. Cost per kWh will continue to go down though.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 5th Jul 18, 2:50 PM
    • 25,750 Posts
    • 25,371 Thanks
    AdrianC
    Al - you're right, but with the mild caveat that there are different chemistries within the basic umbrella of Lithium Ion. At the moment, though, there's only one relevant - we're in agreement on that. The others may or may not break through sooner or later, but even then cost (and probably availability) will be a major factor for quite a while.

    I'm not sure cost/kWh has that far to go - the technology is mature enough that individual cells are already very cheap, and rising production means supply may become difficult on some of the ingredients, especially given their limited (and politically "interesting") source countries. Battery pack design may have some way to go, and EV-focussed chassis design may well start to make larger-capacity packs more mainstream, but the weight issue won't go away in a hurry. A big-battery Model X is around 2.5t, which doesn't leave a heck of a lot of payload headroom before you start butting up against 3.5t C&U/licencing limits in many markets.
    • Stageshoot
    • By Stageshoot 5th Jul 18, 2:55 PM
    • 579 Posts
    • 651 Thanks
    Stageshoot
    @Almillar

    Quote - "Range is going up because of actual bigger batteries, tweaks to the innards of the cells (cobalt etc), and battery management"

    If that's the case how come my Renault Zoe 41kw battery is just 15kg heavier than the old 22kw battery. And is in a case the same size as the old 22kw battery so it's interchangable with the old battery

    In your world of limits have been reached such a thing is not possible ?
    Over 100k miles of Electric Motoring and rising,
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 5th Jul 18, 3:07 PM
    • 25,750 Posts
    • 25,371 Thanks
    AdrianC
    @Almillar

    Quote - "Range is going up because of actual bigger batteries, tweaks to the innards of the cells (cobalt etc), and battery management"

    If that's the case how come my Renault Zoe 41kw battery is just 15kg heavier than the old 22kw battery. And is in a case the same size as the old 22kw battery so it's interchangeable with the old battery

    In your world of limits have been reached such a thing is not possible ?
    Originally posted by Stageshoot
    The packs contain the exact same number of cells - 192 - they're just higher-capacity cells, 65Ah instead of 36Ah. They're the same generic 18650 format as Tesla use in the S and X packs.

    But we're talking about historic increases here, not future ones.

    Will capacities for the format rise? Probably.
    Will they rise substantially without major internal changes? You can bet everybody's trying, but the technology is mature enough that it's unlikely - the big capacity increases are likely to be through chemistry changes, not tickles.
    Last edited by AdrianC; 05-07-2018 at 3:09 PM.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 5th Jul 18, 3:11 PM
    • 9,666 Posts
    • 14,556 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    OK, I'll change the statement for semantics - BASIC CHEMISTRY. Lithium Ion. I'm just trying to keep separate stuff we can currently drive, versus stuff that's not in production - there's a massive difference between the two.
    Originally posted by almillar
    Cheers, sort of important as the issue raised was that all the batts are the same, but it seems some perform better than others due to differences. The Fully Charged episode looking at the EV conversion E-Type Jag was interesting as the company said that they only use Tesla packs now as they are the best. But it's hard to say anything nice about Tesla on here without risking Fanboi counterclaims.

    Lithium Ion was the 'basic chemistry' that made the EVs on our roads feasible today. It's a mature enough technology that it can even be put in bumpy fast moving things, and there's not much more to be extracted by it. Range is going up because of actual bigger batteries, tweaks to the innards of the cells (cobalt etc), and battery management. There's more to go, but not much. Cost per kWh will continue to go down though.
    Originally posted by almillar
    Yep, cost will continue to tumble. The learning curve / Swanson's law has storage competing up there with PV [edit - meaning a high industry learning curve.]. Long term forecasts are excellent too.

    All eyes on solid state for the next decade?
    Last edited by Martyn1981; 05-07-2018 at 3:18 PM.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 5th Jul 18, 3:29 PM
    • 9,666 Posts
    • 14,556 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    I doubt any ICEV's will still be selling/sellable in 2040 anyway, but nice to see Shell on board.

    Shell would support UK bringing forward petrol ban from 2040
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • welfayre
    • By welfayre 5th Jul 18, 4:28 PM
    • 173 Posts
    • 151 Thanks
    welfayre
    I doubt any ICEV's will still be selling/sellable in 2040 anyway, but nice to see Shell on board.

    Shell would support UK bringing forward petrol ban from 2040
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Hmmm not sure that article is saying Shell are on board with the switch. Read to me that they're looking to minimise their investmeny in the UK before moving production to more prosperous (for them) countries.
    • Stageshoot
    • By Stageshoot 5th Jul 18, 4:56 PM
    • 579 Posts
    • 651 Thanks
    Stageshoot
    The packs contain the exact same number of cells - 192 - they're just higher-capacity cells, 65Ah instead of 36Ah. They're the same generic 18650 format as Tesla use in the S and X packs.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Not on the Zoe it does not use 18650s it uses an array of plastic pouches, as per the image below

    Over 100k miles of Electric Motoring and rising,
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 5th Jul 18, 5:16 PM
    • 25,750 Posts
    • 25,371 Thanks
    AdrianC
    D'oh. My brain has clearly been fast-charged too many times today. I thought 65Ah sounded rather substantial for an 18650, too. It's the Leaf that uses 18650s. I still can't wrap my head around Renault-Nissan having two such ostensibly similar EVs with so little commonality.
    • Stageshoot
    • By Stageshoot 5th Jul 18, 5:18 PM
    • 579 Posts
    • 651 Thanks
    Stageshoot
    D'oh. My brain has clearly been fast-charged too many times today. I thought 65Ah sounded rather substantial for an 18650, too. It's the Leaf that uses 18650s. I still can't wrap my head around Renault-Nissan having two such ostensibly similar EVs with so little commonality.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    I know, its like they decided it was best to spend twice as much on research and Development...

    Hey but on the bright side at least Renault spent Money on the active cooling in the Zoe so you can rapid charge it multiple times a day without the car melting

    This is an interesting PDF on how Renault see things going..

    http://cii-resource.com/cet/AABE-03-17/Presentations/BMGT/Delobel_Bruno.pdf
    Over 100k miles of Electric Motoring and rising,
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 5th Jul 18, 5:24 PM
    • 4,960 Posts
    • 6,716 Thanks
    zeupater
    Hmmm not sure that article is saying Shell are on board with the switch. Read to me that they're looking to minimise their investmeny in the UK before moving production to more prosperous (for them) countries.
    Originally posted by welfayre
    Hi

    Odd ... I read it that Shell have accepted that the changeover to EVs will happen in the more prosperous countries first, with less developed economies, such as those in Africa, being the last to change over to EVs (for obvious economic & infrastructure reasons) ...

    It doesn't really make much sense to read 'UK' into the decision as the rate of changeover to EVs will be broadly similar across Europe and other 'developed' regions ... it's also notable that petrol prices in less developed countries are normally considerably lower than the UK or Europe, by the looks of it it's mainly between 1/3 & 1/2 of UK litre pricing in African nations ... granted, much of the difference could be related to national tax policies, however, wherever fuel tax is low price volatility at the pump becomes an issue as it drives demand, particularly so in poorer economic regions.

    Chances are that they're simply looking whether to have a final round of major plant investment, or extend the service life of what's already in place ... current EV timetables probably provide a date which falls into an inconvenient slot between the optimal position for the two options, leaving them in an investment quandary ... however, what suits Shell's timetable may not suit their competitors!

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • Arklight
    • By Arklight 6th Jul 18, 9:48 AM
    • 2,839 Posts
    • 4,289 Thanks
    Arklight
    Reading this thread kind of reinforces my prejudices about electric vehicles. Namely that battery tech just isn't there yet. Li-On batteries begin degrading the moment they pop out of the production line.

    300 charge cycles or so and the internal corrosion has knocked off 8% of their capacity, and realistically what is the range of a brand new fully charged Nissan Leaf with the stereo on loud, the heather blowing heat, and headlights on - 100 miles?

    Talk me round because I really want this technology to work, but as it stands the human race can't find a way to make a laptop battery that will hold a charge after two years, how are we meant to abandon petrol vehicles?
    • ElefantEd
    • By ElefantEd 6th Jul 18, 10:36 AM
    • 710 Posts
    • 1,309 Thanks
    ElefantEd
    Reading this thread kind of reinforces my prejudices about electric vehicles. Namely that battery tech just isn't there yet. Li-On batteries begin degrading the moment they pop out of the production line.

    300 charge cycles or so and the internal corrosion has knocked off 8% of their capacity, and realistically what is the range of a brand new fully charged Nissan Leaf with the stereo on loud, the heather blowing heat, and headlights on - 100 miles?

    Talk me round because I really want this technology to work, but as it stands the human race can't find a way to make a laptop battery that will hold a charge after two years, how are we meant to abandon petrol vehicles?
    Originally posted by Arklight

    I don't think that 8% after 300 charging cycles can be right. We've had a Leaf for nearly 4 years (done over 100,000 miles in it), charging nearly every day - often more than once -, and the battery is still at about 96% of the theoretical maximum.


    Obviously this is only one data point, it would be interesting to get an overall picture of battery degradation from a good sized sample. I'm sure that Nissan (at least) have this as the car sends info about its performance for every journey.
    • gzoom
    • By gzoom 6th Jul 18, 11:54 AM
    • 367 Posts
    • 399 Thanks
    gzoom
    Reading this thread kind of reinforces my prejudices about electric vehicles. Namely that battery tech just isn't there yet. Li-On batteries begin degrading the moment they pop out of the production line.

    300 charge cycles or so and the internal corrosion has knocked off 8% of their capacity, and realistically what is the range of a brand new fully charged Nissan Leaf with the stereo on loud, the heather blowing heat, and headlights on - 100 miles?

    Talk me round because I really want this technology to work, but as it stands the human race can't find a way to make a laptop battery that will hold a charge after two years, how are we meant to abandon petrol vehicles?
    Originally posted by Arklight


    You have obviously been to @AdrianC school of battery engineering.


    Yes the chemical reaction of electricity storage/discharge in your phone/laptop battery is the same as in EV battery packs but to compare the two is just like comparing the internal combustion engine in a petrol lawn mower to a Formula 1 block .


    Li-on is such awful technology that still good enough provide enough power to keep our 2.5 ton SUV on the tail of a V8 Ferrari convertible.....oh and the battery in our SUV has a 8 year unlimited miles warranty and is the SLOWEST car Tesla currently sell in the UK. How much maintenance will the owner of the Ferrari I followed spend on keeping the engine running over the next 8 years I wonder .


    https://youtu.be/j-uf9hf0jBk
    Last edited by gzoom; 06-07-2018 at 11:59 AM.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

599Posts Today

6,381Users online

Martin's Twitter