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  • FIRST POST
    • doughboy2000
    • By doughboy2000 6th Nov 18, 10:53 AM
    • 17Posts
    • 6Thanks
    doughboy2000
    Claim form received, advice needed please!
    • #1
    • 6th Nov 18, 10:53 AM
    Claim form received, advice needed please! 6th Nov 18 at 10:53 AM
    Hi, Guys,

    (Sorry, the Newbies guide said to start a new thread)

    In December 2017 someone parked in a Lidl car park then nipped into town for 20 mins then came back intending to call into Lidl after putting what they bought from town into my vehicle first. As they opened the van they saw a PCN on the windscreen and a parking guy approached and said you can't leave the premises whilst parked here. A few weeks later they got a fine telling them to pay up, but they binned it after reading somewhere that they couldn't enforce it.

    Fast forward to Nov 18 and they just had a claim form from Euro Parking Services asking for 245.

    Is all lost now? Is there anything they can do now it's got to this stage?

    Thanks
    Last edited by doughboy2000; 06-11-2018 at 11:26 AM.
Page 2
    • Redx
    • By Redx 6th Nov 18, 9:36 PM
    • 19,963 Posts
    • 25,278 Thanks
    Redx
    no its not

    either the claim form was issued to the keeper of the vehicle, or the parking company were told the name of the driver and therefore issued it to the driver (a driver cannot use POFA2012)

    so on the assumption that nobody blabbed, the KEEPER received the claim form and the KEEPER is defending it

    however, sometimes a driver defence is better, but only where a driver can shed light on the actual events and therefore may win a case which a keeper cannot AND especially if the PPC have complied with POFA2012

    so its decide which entity you are, which cap is being worn for the defence

    but if the driver was divulged, then its a default driver defence, not a keeper defence at all (even if they are one and the same person)
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • doughboy2000
    • By doughboy2000 7th Nov 18, 8:24 AM
    • 17 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    doughboy2000
    Assuming the Claimant has photo/video evidence of the Defendant leaving the site whilst parked there and that there is sufficient number of signs can anyone advise as to what angle defence could take?

    Penalty excessive?

    Turning into car park off busy dual carriageway with pedestrians crossing the car park (people walk through car park from housing estate and Hotel to get into town) so Defendant must concentrate on not hitting people rather than seeing the sign at the entrance?

    The signs are quite high?

    IMG_2432.jpeg (Photo of sign, hopefully)
    • Castle
    • By Castle 7th Nov 18, 9:24 AM
    • 2,024 Posts
    • 2,729 Thanks
    Castle
    Assuming the Claimant has photo/video evidence of the Defendant leaving the site whilst parked there and that there is sufficient number of signs can anyone advise as to what angle defence could take?
    Originally posted by doughboy2000
    One way to find out is to send a SAR requesting copies of all photos, CCTV film/video (if applicable) and notes made by the PPC's operative.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 7th Nov 18, 9:58 AM
    • 20,270 Posts
    • 32,007 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Link doesn't work.

    NEWBIES - HOW TO UPLOAD LINKS TO PHOTOS/SCANS TO MSE

    To upload a photo/scan link, you first need to host it on a free photo hosting site (like Dropbox, Imurg or Tinypic), copy the URL, paste it here, but change the http to hxxp and we'll do the conversion. Newbies can't directly upload links to photos/scans until they've a few posts under their belt.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • doughboy2000
    • By doughboy2000 7th Nov 18, 8:03 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    doughboy2000
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ph4ifjajix2seeq/IMG_2432.jpeg?dl=0

    Photo of parking sign if anyone can see any issues?

    Thanks again!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 7th Nov 18, 8:12 PM
    • 64,101 Posts
    • 76,681 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Sign:

    Cluttered wording, lack of white space, lack of clear and brief terms - compare it to the Beavis case sign that I've linked in the NEWBIES thread post #2 in the lower part about WS and evidence stage. Look at them both - CHALK & CHEESE!

    Penalty excessive?
    Never - killed by the Beavis case in 2015.

    Assuming the Claimant has photo/video evidence of the Defendant leaving the site whilst parked there
    We say, you assume wrong. They will not have photos of who the driver was, nor that person 'leaving the site' (what site). A Defendant is entitled to raise the issue of what constitutes 'the site boundary', given that the signage doesn't show a map/boundary...

    and that there is sufficient number of signs
    So what, they are cluttered in wording, absolute gobbledegook and the terms about leaving the site are vague due to no boundary, and hidden in small/closely packed print.

    can anyone advise as to what angle defence could take?
    Usual Gladstones defence points (see other threads) plus putting them to proof (photos) that the driver left the site.

    You could also contact the Council to check when planning permission was given for that retail park - did it allow them to limit patrons to shopping on site? Often LAs require car parks to be for general use as part for the planning consent, so ask the planning dept for a copy.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 07-11-2018 at 8:14 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • doughboy2000
    • By doughboy2000 7th Nov 18, 9:23 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    doughboy2000
    Great info, thanks. Defendant has been told by a reliable source that it's the Travelodge (next to Lidl) that actually owns the car park. Wondering if there's anything there to work with?
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 7th Nov 18, 9:29 PM
    • 37,946 Posts
    • 22,059 Thanks
    Quentin
    Are your initials CP?
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 8th Nov 18, 5:53 AM
    • 3,769 Posts
    • 6,189 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    Have you got a pic of the signs yet? The last one I've seen says 90 mins for Lidl customers / Travelodge guests have to display a permit. Nowhere does it say that you can't leave site. (See a UKPC sign for that one)

    So in order to have breached the contract you would have to have been over 90 mins or a guest of Travelodge. Get a pic of the sign and the Notice to Keeper and check one against the other.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • doughboy2000
    • By doughboy2000 9th Nov 18, 9:08 AM
    • 17 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    doughboy2000
    Quentin - why?

    IamanEmanresu - Pic of the sign is above, it does say about leaving the site
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 9th Nov 18, 9:33 AM
    • 20,270 Posts
    • 32,007 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Are your initials CP?
    Originally posted by Quentin
    Quentin - why?
    Originally posted by doughboy2000
    Because your cover page of your Dropbox account, accessed via your link, seems to show a real name (albeit initials CB!).

    You are advised never to reveal your real identity on this forum.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 9th Nov 18, 9:41 AM
    • 20,270 Posts
    • 32,007 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Just read the sign - illiteracy knows few bounds! Verbatim:
    To park within a parent and CHILED bay driver must be accompanied by ATLEST one child UPTO 12 years of age travelling in a CHILD CAR (what's one of those?) or booster seat.
    And that's a legal contract?
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • doughboy2000
    • By doughboy2000 9th Nov 18, 10:40 AM
    • 17 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    doughboy2000
    Wow never noticed that! Pretty incredible.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 9th Nov 18, 11:18 AM
    • 20,270 Posts
    • 32,007 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    IamanEmanresu - Pic of the sign is above, it does say about leaving the site
    Originally posted by doughboy2000
    It doesn't actually say anything about 'leaving the site'. It refers to Lidl customers '90 minutes maximum stay whilst on the premises'.

    If the driver wasn't a Lidl customer, then that condition couldn't apply to him/her - this would be a trespass case which only the landowner could pursue.

    Have you checked with the council whether there were any stipulations attached to planning permission which allowed the use of the car park for access to other retail outlets away from it?
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 9th Nov 18, 12:19 PM
    • 37,946 Posts
    • 22,059 Thanks
    Quentin
    Quentin - why?
    Originally posted by doughboy2000
    A simple y or n will suffice
    • doughboy2000
    • By doughboy2000 14th Nov 18, 7:53 AM
    • 17 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    doughboy2000
    Now changed, thanks Quentin
    • doughboy2000
    • By doughboy2000 14th Nov 18, 10:20 AM
    • 17 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    doughboy2000
    Umkomaas - sorry only just noticed your post. Interesting spot, thanks. Do you know how to go about finding that out? Is it a phone number or write a letter?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 14th Nov 18, 10:25 AM
    • 20,270 Posts
    • 32,007 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Tracer phone call to the LA planning department to get an early indication, follow up with an email to seek any confirmation.

    If they're a bit evasive, you could send in a Freedom of Information Request. You are legally entitled to the information.

    https://www.whatdotheyknow.com
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 14th Nov 18, 10:51 AM
    • 20,270 Posts
    • 32,007 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Umkomaas - sorry only just noticed your post. Interesting spot, thanks.
    Originally posted by doughboy2000
    It's 5 days since I made that post. It's a long time to leave between visiting your thread when your case is at a pretty critical stage.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • doughboy2000
    • By doughboy2000 21st Nov 18, 8:17 AM
    • 17 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    doughboy2000
    Umkomaas - I know, everything happening at once at the moment.

    AOS has been submitted so now have a further 2 weeks to sort a defence. This is the very rough first draft.

    Two main points are:

    1. Is there evidence of defendant leaving site other than EPS attendent saying so (cite Parlimianent statements showing how unscrupulous these companies are)

    2. Problems with signage (compare to Beavis).

    Can anyone advise?

    DEFENCE

    1. The facts are that the Defendant is the registered keeper and the driver of the Vehicle.

    2. The Defendant denies that the Claimant is entitled to relief in the sum claimed, or at all.

    3. The particulars of the Claim state that the Defendant was the registered keeper and/or the driver of the vehicle. These assertions indicate that the Claimant has failed to identify a Course of Action, and is instead offering a menu of choices. As a result, the Claim fails to comply with Civil Procedure Rule 16.4, or with Civil Practice Direction 16, paras. 7.3 to 7.5. Further, the particulars of the claim do not meet the requirements of Practice Direction 16 7.5 as there is nothing which specifies how the terms were breached.

    4. Due to the sparseness of the particulars, it is unclear as to what legal basis the claim is brought, whether for breach of contract, contractual liability, or trespass. However, it is denied that the Defendant, or any driver of the vehicle, entered into any contractual agreement with the Claimant, whether express, implied, or by conduct.

    5. The Claimant is put on strict proof to provide photographic or video evidence that the Defendant left site whist the Vehicle was parked on site.

    6.. The Claimants signage is not concise, is laid out in an unclear way and contains grammatical and spelling errors. The Claimants signage is also open to misinterpretation. It is therefore denied that the Claimant’s signage is capable of creating legally binding contract

    7. The Claimant is put on strict proof that it has sufficient property interest in the land, or that it has the necessary authorisation from the landowner to issue parking charge notices, and to pursue payment by means of litigation.

    8. The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4, at Section 4(5) states that the maximum sum that may be recovered from the keeper is the charge stated on the Notice to Keeper, in this case 100. The claim includes an additional 60 for which no calculation or explanation is given, and which appears to be an attempt at double recovery.

    9. In summary, it is the Defendant’s position that the claim discloses no cause of action, is without merit, and has no real prospect of success. Accordingly, the Court is invited to strike out the claim of its own initiative, using its case management powers pursuant to CPR 3.4.

    I believe the facts contained in this defence are true.
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