Electric cars

Gloomendoom wrote: »

What do you think are the differences?

I have spent a fair bit of time in car factories and I cannot think of any significant differences between ICE and EV.

You could run them down the same production line, one behind the other.

From older negative comments made by older car companies, and the 'preachings' of Bob Lutz who is wheeled out everytime Tesla gets some good news, I'd guess at a few.

1. They don't want to change. They make a product that needs more expense to keep it going and more and more expense as it gets older. Not sure how many cars get to 200,000+ miles, but a Tesloop vehicle didn't even need new brake pads till then.

2. They have dealership networks, and the dealerships know that EV's will kill them both in direct sales (order on the internet) and yearly income (EV's little, or sometimes no annual servicing).

3. The dealership network means they sell wholesale, not retail.

4. They simply didn't enter the game soon enough (apart from a few like Nissan) and haven't yet got the EV expertise. Ford US is even pulling out of selling cars, but if EV's can do what EV's look like doing, then their fallback on pickups could also collapse.

5. Batteries, obviously, they are not all the same (as someone once claimed on here) and can make or break an EV both in cost and range.

6. EV's can and should be more of a technical tool, than the more simple ICE's, but technological innovation, especially disruptions, tends to favour the young, not the old in business.

I'm sure there are a myriad of additional factors, but it all probably comes back to point one. They didn't (possibly don't) believe in EV's and have squandered about a decade.

The Bolt is a perfect example, it leapfrogged the Leaf (at the time), beat Tesla to market by a year, but wasn't supplied to states that wanted it, was discounted in states that didn't want it, and production numbers remain small (around 2,000 per month) demonstrating to me that it's nothing more than a compliance vehicle built to keep some parties happy/quiet.

The big boys should have the money and expertise to have left Tesla in their dust 5yrs ago, but instead they laughed at the Prius and Leaf and Tesla's ..... whose laughing now.

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Why did it need proving, were you unsure of your own claim?

No Martin.

If you look back to post 1913, you will see that I said...

I have spent a fair bit of time in car factories and I cannot think of any significant differences between ICE and EV.

You could run them down the same production line, one behind the other

I said "could" because at the time I was unaware that it was actually being done.

My next post showed that not only could it be done, but it actually is being done. Proving my point.

I can run through it again if you like...

RichardD1970 wrote: »

Yes, a much simpler shape to encompass a relatively uniform shaped battery pack as opposed to a floorpan that has to accommodate a transmission tunnel, room for the diffs, room for the exhaust system including DPFs, catalytic converters and a few other things.

Again.

The only difference is the drive train, replace all the ICE's complicated cogs, gears, drive shafts, differentials, transfer box, exhaust pipe, catalytic converter, DPF (if diesel) fuel tank and fuel system with a battery, a couple of motors and a bit more wire.

As for the why they aren't, I think you answered your own question in post #1917

You appear to be going in circles, you claimed that building an ICE or EV is simple for an established car company, You've guoted how many years JLR have been around, how many years you've been around and dismissed any interest in GM's age and EV attempts.

But the point remains, if it's so easy, then they'd all be doing it today, and making a profit on them 'like what' Tesla is doing, after all Tesla is much younger and has a massive profit margin on the Model 3 (estimated by the German strip down, and US strip down companies) but they are not.

So it seems that reality doesn't agree with your theory, when your theory/claims are actually tested in the real world.

As to why your theory/claims are wrong, I don't know, I've made a few suggestions and guesses to help you out, but the issue was can long established companies easily switch from ICE's to EV's, and it seems to be a lot harder than you thought/think.

Everything else is the same. If not please explain what is different?

I don't need to. I've simply pointed out that reality proves your claims wrong, I'm not theorizing against you, I'm simply pointing out that you got it wrong.

Perhaps, just perhaps you could consider or contemplate the idea that GM's 110yrs of ICE experience, or your 30yrs in the car industry, simply don't matter that much as ICE's and EV's are different animals. It's interesting (to me) that the Bolt (even on first release) got higher CR scores than the rest of the Chevy range, yet was designed and built with considerable help from LG, seeming to indicate that building EV's needs additional/new expertise.

Sorry, but you really don't have a clue about building cars do you?

That's correct, and I'd suggest the same clearly applies to you with regard to EV's. Perhaps that's the problem.

Building an EV from scratch isn't easy. They are simpler in principle but highly complex in practice.

Manufacturing one however, once the design and development stages are complete, is no different to manufacturing an ICE vehicle.

Taking the design, development, manufacturing and other costs into consideration, I doubt that Tesla is even breaking even with Model 3 at current production levels, never mind making a 30% profit.

Edit: Looking around the web, it seems that Model 3 production would need to hit around 4000 a week to break even. Are they doing that yet?