P/T Holiday allowance (28 hours over 5 days but varying shift lengths).

jobbingmusician · 17 October 2019 at 9:37PM

getmore4less wrote: »

Start with the Prorata for part timers to get the correct allowance.

How did they get to 20+BH for a 5day part timer when full time get 24+BH.

This is a very good point. If you were working 5 days of 5 hours each, you should get exactly the same as a full timer - 24 + BH (but of course your days off are shorter, just the same as your working days are). And of course you are entitled to more than this because one of your days is 8 hours. Point out to your employer that giving you less (pro rata) leave than full timers is definitely illegal - there is lots of case law establishing that this is indirect sex discrimination. With any luck this, in itself, will spur them into doing a proper calculation in hours.

getmore4less · 17 October 2019 at 10:20PM

Redpetal wrote: »

I'm not sure, I was just told that this was my allowance and accepted it. We are a small company and don't have an official HR dep, so its just one of the managers who worked it out. Looking at it, I think they may have just done the calculation of 28 x 5.6 which is 19.6 days, and then given me 20 days holiday + still kept the bank holidays in addition so I get 28 days off and Ft get 32 days off. Have they calculated this wrong due to bank hols. Also, our allowance is not stat it is better than stat, so not sure HOW to then calculate things as the 5.6 figure is not correct to x by 28 I think??

Go back to basics to get the starting point right.

No point in arguing other points till the basics are correct.

The part rime regulations cover for more than statutory.

Unless there is something specific about your job that you get less holiday
(just being part time is not special enough)

You worked 5 days you get the same days as other 5 day workers.

The change of hours is a secondary issue

Redpetal · 17 October 2019 at 10:40PM

getmore4less wrote: »

Go back to basics to get the starting point right.

No point in arguing other points till the basics are correct.

The part rime regulations cover for more than statutory.

Unless there is something specific about your job that you get less holiday
(just being part time is not special enough)

You worked 5 days you get the same days as other 5 day workers.

The change of hours is a secondary issue

Thank you, I totally agree I need to go back to basics, so before I go back to my employer I am trying to find out what my allowance should be in days/hours. I do the same job as a full time worker (I used to be one, but have only changed hours since having a child) so i just want to be offered the same deal but pro rata.

Is 20 days or 160 hours correct for a 28 hour/5 days week worker with varying shifts?
Or do I have a case that as I work 5 days I can just ask for 24 +BH as well as the full time staff? However, my 8 hour Fridays would complicate that as I could then just take all Fridays off and end up getting more hours pro rata off than by FT colleagues?

I'm getting very confused with it all now.

Savvy_Sue · 18 October 2019 at 3:11AM

TBH I'd work out how many hours your full-time colleagues are getting, divide that by 40 and multiply it by 28. You could then see what that looks like in terms of weeks, because I think (and it's too late to get my head round this) that if you do that, it will be obvious that calculating it in days does not give a true 'pro rata' result.

There is a complication with the paid lunch hour, because on your 5 hour days I presume you do not take a lunch break.

One piece of advice: make it as easy as you can for them. Explain that they don't actually have to do more than they're doing now, your leave booking forms will still show clearly how many hours you're asking for, how many you've got left etc. It's possible that if it's a completely manual system for booking leave then no-one's thought about this at all.

I suppose it's too much to hope that you're in a union?

paddedjohn · 18 October 2019 at 4:34AM

The full time colleagues are getting 14.03% of their hours in holiday allowance while you are only getting the basic 12.07%
You are getting 156.8 hours now but should be entitled to 179.12 hours.

getmore4less · 18 October 2019 at 5:13AM

Redpetal wrote: »

Thank you, I totally agree I need to go back to basics, so before I go back to my employer I am trying to find out what my allowance should be in days/hours. I do the same job as a full time worker (I used to be one, but have only changed hours since having a child) so i just want to be offered the same deal but pro rata.

Is 20 days or 160 hours correct for a 28 hour/5 days week worker with varying shifts?
Or do I have a case that as I work 5 days I can just ask for 24 +BH as well as the full time staff? However, my 8 hour Fridays would complicate that as I could then just take all Fridays off and end up getting more hours pro rata off than by FT colleagues?

I'm getting very confused with it all now.

The issue you have is the Employer has got it wrong so need educating on how to do it properly.

To do that you need to understand how they got to the holiday allowance they gave you, not a guess, so ask.

Then you can correct that, by using examples.

Start with the 5 day worker just doing less hours each day which is what you were doing before the shift changes(same as the full time workers just less hours).

then do the same hours less days.

then do less hours less days.

Then do variable hours and introduce the hours concept.

What is your holiday year, did you go part time during this year or are you now in a new holiday year.

Because your holiday is short you will have 4 days more to use

nicechap · 18 October 2019 at 7:02AM

Redpetal wrote: »

I'm not sure, I was just told that this was my allowance and accepted it. We are a small company and don't have an official HR dep, so its just one of the managers who worked it out. Looking at it, I think they may have just done the calculation of 28 x 5.6 which is 19.6 days, and then given me 20 days holiday + still kept the bank holidays in addition so I get 28 days off and Ft get 32 days off. Have they calculated this wrong due to bank hols. Also, our allowance is not stat it is better than stat, so not sure HOW to then calculate things as the 5.6 figure is not correct to x by 28 I think??

if they have calculated it that way, you are getting 4 days (pro rata) more leave than your colleagues, so may loose 8 days (pro rata) when this gets sorted.

Redpetal · 18 October 2019 at 11:55AM

Thanks again for all the replies. I do think it is the bank holidays which are confusing my employer. I think the key for me now is to start from scratch and work out what my allowance should be pro rata to F/T regardless of what has been offered previously offered. I think I will call ACAS today to see what they think too. However, if anyone has any further opinion to offer on what my CORRECT allowance should be in DAYS/HOURS, I would love to hear your thoughts.

We know for sure this is the CORRECT holiday allowance for full time staff as per their contract, which is:
32 days in total including bank holidays (which is 4 days more than STAT allowance!)
However, this is broken into 24 BOOKABLE Days (192 hours) + 8 days bank holiday that they HAVE to take within the 32 days allowance but is not in their bookable allowance.
They work a 40 hour/5 day week, 8 hour day with 1 hour PAID lunch.

Based on the above, if a new employee starts at the start of the holiday year (doing the same job and same contract as F/t employee) but doing the following hours/conditions.

28 hours over the 5 day week
broken into 4 x 5 hours (upto 30 min PAID lunch), 1 x 8 hours (1 hour paid lunch)

What is their holiday allowance in HOURS ( or DAYS but this general won't work on varying shift), as an exact pro rata to the F/Tdetails?

Thanks so much!

I will also be calling ACAS to ask them the above too.

getmore4less · 18 October 2019 at 12:31PM

Should just be done in hours

28/40*32*8=179.2hr
then deduct the hours for the days you take off.

To do it in days.

4/5 of the week is a 5hr day, 1/5 is 8hr day.

Full time get 32 days(ignore the BH they are just set days off)

This beaks down to

(4/5)*32= 25.6 days @ 5hrs = 128hr
(1/5)*32= 6.4 days @ 8hrs = 51.2hr

32 days == 179.2hr.

The legislation works in weeks

full timers get 6.4 weeks
you get 6.4 of your weeks which is 28hr*6.4=179.2hr.

Redpetal · 18 October 2019 at 12:54PM

getmore4less wrote: »

Should just be done in hours

28/40*32*8=179.2hr
then deduct the hours for the days you take off.

To do it in days.

4/5 of the week is a 5hr day, 1/5 is 8hr day.

Full time get 32 days(ignore the BH they are just set days off)

This beaks down to

(4/5)*32= 25.6 days @ 5hrs = 128hr
(1/5)*32= 6.4 days @ 8hrs = 51.2hr

32 days == 179.2hr.

The legislation works in weeks

full timers get 6.4 weeks
you get 6.4 of your weeks which is 28hr*6.4=179.2hr.

Thanks for this, but I am still confused due to the bank holidays. My employer keeps the holiday allowance on a tracker based on BOOKABLE days, bank holidays are not included in this arrangement.

I presume on the above 179.2 hours this INCLUDES bank holidays. So how do I then get to my bookable hours? Would I take off 8 x 8 64 hours leaving 115.2. Or as I work a 5 hour day on most of the bank holidays wouldl I take of 8 x 5 hours (40 - leaving 139.2)

Would the calculation be better to do pro rata on the bookable hours and exclude the bank holidays?

40 hour/wk BOOKABLE HOURS: 192
28 hour/wk BOOKABLE HOURS: 134.4

(worked out as

40 hours a week: 24 days x 8 hours= 192 hours BOOKABLE allowance
28 hours a week as a percentage of 40 hours a week is 70%

70% of 192 hours is: 134.4 hours.

or
192/40 x 28 = 134.4

P/T Holiday allowance (28 hours over 5 days but varying shift lengths).

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