Green, ethical, energy issues in the news

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  • GreatApe
    GreatApe Posts: 4,452 Forumite
    edited 15 October 2019 at 12:12PM
    JKenH wrote: »
    Why not just drop the batteries and save some weight?:) Seriously though, why isn’t there a market for range extenders? They would appeal to me.


    It could be one of the possible future
    80 mile range BEVs
    For those who need more for a particular day/week/month they pick up a petrol range extender at the local petrol station or super charger

    Something towed on the back but super easy to install and get going. Less than a minute

    This seems possibly a better solution than every car being 300 mile range BEVs
    The average car with 80 mile range might live it's 150,000 mile life and only use a range extender for 3,000 miles so it's 98% electric 2% petrol. For the fanatics this 2% can be bio oil

    Helps deploy BEVs faster as you can build 3.5 X 80 mile range BEVs for each 300 mile range BEV if you are battery limited as we currently are and probably will be for 15-20 years

    Or of course plug in Hybrids with say 50 mile electric Only and then the petrol engine kicks in
    No range worries. 95% of miles electric 5% petrol. With a mass deployment of charging infrastructure even if your trip is 50 miles one way then 50 miles back you would be full electric. Such a hybrid might only need 12KWh of batteries. A 7KW charger would charge From totally empty to totally full in less than two hours but you wouldn't need to worry about this plug in come back when you want even in 12 mins because the petrol engine will kick in and no range worries. The standard could even be 22KW chargers everywhere so 3x as rapid

    A large car company or group of companies can deploy a vast number of 7KW chargers (a vast number already exist) then these 50 mile range plug in Hybrids would get us 95% electrified mileage.

    Even for a taxi driver these would be fine. Average speed in London is 17mph
    If they do a 10 hour shift with a 45 mins lunch break and three 15mins toilet coffee leg stretch breaks they would be 90% miles Electric
  • JKenH
    JKenH Posts: 4,743
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    GreatApe wrote: »
    So yes plug in Hybrids with decent ranges might actually be the best of all worlds
    Electric 95% of lifetime miles
    No range worries
    This might be something you would be more interested in rather than a pure BEV

    Yes, I agree with you but is there one that will do much over 30 miles? I did order a Golf GTE hybrid a couple of years ago but after 8 or 9 months it hadn’t arrived so I bought a diesel golf instead and some solar panels. I still keep my eye out for hybrids but really need something my wife will drive on a daily basis so it needs to be small. She will use the Golf for long trips but says it is too big to park for shopping. I think I will have a long wait.
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, ex Nissan Leaf owner)
  • ABrass
    ABrass Posts: 1,001
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    BMW i3 is probably the only one. The Chevy Volt might have met that criteria but it's dead now. The thing is that whilst long range plugins with range extenders do suit a small number of people very well, it's a small number of people.

    Whilst you might like a car with a range extender, most people would prefer a BEV with another 30kwh (assuming 3k for engine and battery marginal cost at £100/kWh). Which works out at 100miles more.
    8kW (4kW WNW, 4kW SSE) 6kW inverter. 6.5kWh battery.
  • GreatApe
    GreatApe Posts: 4,452 Forumite
    A hybrid natural gas powered electric car would be very interesting

    9KWh battery 40 miles range with a natural gas tank that allows another 150-300 miles range

    Can fill up the gas tank at home with natural gas for just 3p a unit (petrol and diesel is closer to 13p a unit)

    Natural gas is far cleaner than diesel or petrol and you could even potentially have a gas turbine which can be as high as 40% efficient and is more compact and powerful. Natural gas is also far cheaper than oil or petrol/diesel to import

    This would be 95% + electric and 5% natural gas
    Even if you never plugged the thing in and the efficiency was just 33% the thing would cost just 2p a mile in fuel and emmit just 80 grams/km

    In fact depending on the time of day and the grid of the host nation it can be better to not plug in at all
    In the UK it's better to plug in. In Germany most of the time it's better to not plug in since they are marginal coal still and will be for at least another decade++

    While battery EVs get all the press hybrids could be the future
    Hybrid petrols hybrid natural gas. 95% of miles Electric 5% hydrocarbon
  • GreatApe
    GreatApe Posts: 4,452 Forumite
    JKenH wrote: »
    Yes, I agree with you but is there one that will do much over 30 miles? I did order a Golf GTE hybrid a couple of years ago but after 8 or 9 months it hadn’t arrived so I bought a diesel golf instead and some solar panels. I still keep my eye out for hybrids but really need something my wife will drive on a daily basis so it needs to be small. She will use the Golf for long trips but says it is too big to park for shopping. I think I will have a long wait.


    Like yourself I would be interested in a mid sized hybrid that got 50 miles battery range before the petrol kicked in. I think such a car for me could be as much as 99% electric 1% petrol especially if I could charge both ends of my trip. For me that would be possible today and as chargers get more common it will be possible for the less inclined

    30 litre petrol tank would give 400 mile range and fill up with petrol anywhere
    £35 in petrol to fill up and I might only need to fill up once every other year

    This seems to be missing in the market 50 mile range plug in Hybrids
    Especially a fiesta class and focus class hybrid
    Small medium super efficient might only need 10KWh battery pack and 80HP Electric motor
    Petrol engine and tank can be smaller than a petrol only version

    Solves a lot of problems
    No range worries
    Rapid refueling so no supercharger worries
    Much smaller battery packs needed 10KWh rather than 50-100KWh which helps resolve the battery shortage problem. Also helps with the charging mental problem. A 7KW home charger can charge a 10KWh pack up in 1.5 hours which seems a more reasonable sell than Saying it's going to take 14h to charge up your 100KWh battery only EV
    Much smaller engine required as the petrol engine only needs to produce 15HP which is average steady motorway speed need rather than a 80+HP petrol engine to do rapid acceleration etc.
    Cold weather need not worry you a micro petrol burner can be used for heating the car
    And can still achieve as much as 99% electric miles. Maybe over its lifetime 95% +
  • GreatApe
    GreatApe Posts: 4,452 Forumite
    ABrass wrote: »
    BMW i3 is probably the only one. The Chevy Volt might have met that criteria but it's dead now. The thing is that whilst long range plugins with range extenders do suit a small number of people very well, it's a small number of people.

    Whilst you might like a car with a range extender, most people would prefer a BEV with another 30kwh (assuming 3k for engine and battery marginal cost at £100/kWh). Which works out at 100miles more.


    Depends on cost

    The cost for a hybrid is I would guess pretty low
    As I keep saying you can buy a whole new petrol car for as low as £6.5k plus Vat
    The petrol engine etc side might cost less than £1k of this £6.5k
    How much can £1k buy in battery packs? Perhaps 7KWh if you are lucky?

    So the choice is something like
    10KWh hybrid 40 mile electric only and 300 mile petrol range £20,000
    17KWh battery only with 68 mile range and 0 mile petrol range £20,000
    I would take the hybrid in this example the 68 mile BEV would be too impractical

    To go from a 10KWh hybrid to a useable battery only might require 50KWh 200 mile range.
    This 40KWh additional battery is costly Adding maybe £6k to the cost
    So it becomes something like
    10KWh hybrid 40 mile electric 300 mile petrol £20,000
    50KWh BEV 200 mile electric £26,000
    I would still prefer this hybrid and a lot of people are uncomfortable with even 200 mile range
    For them it might be this hybrid Vs a 350 mile BEV with A 90KWh battery pack so £20k Vs £32k and as you can imagine again most people would prefer this £20k version rather than spend £12k more to go from 95% of miles Electric to 100% of miles Electric. This additional 5% isn't worth £12k

    Just examples
  • GreatApe
    GreatApe Posts: 4,452 Forumite
    edited 15 October 2019 at 1:48PM
    I thought hybrids were stupid as Elon says they are like amphibians
    However they make a lot of sense
    The electric side only need match most trips
    50 miles range especially when chargers are everywhere so you can charge on both ends of the trip would be perfectly fine

    A 15HP small petrol engine and a tank for 30 litres of petrol don't weigh much at all and they don't cost much to manufacture as by the evidence engines much more powerful in fully functional brand new small cars that cost £6.5k+Vat exist and obviously the engine costs only a fraction of that retail price to manufacture and install

    Very interesting
    Give me a 50 mile Electric 300 mile petrol hybrid instead of a full BEV
    95%+ of my miles would be electric & to cover the next 5% isn't worth a £10k price premium + lower total maximum range

    Maybe the traditional manufacturers should be concentrating on this more
    Solves battery limit problems too, 10KWh of batteries rather than 60-100KWh for a pure BEV
    Instead of being able to manufacture 1 million pure BEVs can manufacture 6-10 million medium range Hybrids with the same number of battery cells

    And the likes of Tesla probably couldn't/wouldn't compete in this segment
    If 60KWh of battery packs (not cells, packs) becomes cheaper than about £2-3k then battery only would win
    This doesn't look likely to happen anytime soon

    So a Tesla model 3 with 310 mile version for £50k
    Or a BMW Hybrid similar class for £40k but 100 mile electric only before 500 mile petrol range
    Or a Ford hybrid similar class for £25k but 50 mile electric only before 350 mile petrol range

    The Tesla would be 100% Electric miles, the BMW and Ford 95%+

    Hell the BMW and Ford can give you a full tank of petrol on delivery and it would probably last most (>50%) customers more than a whole year. For me it could last 10 years since I would have a charger at home and work. The few times I do more than 50 miles (ford) or 100 miles (BMW) the petrol engine would kick in. The longest distance I have driven in the last five years is 120 miles London to Birmingham even that trip would be 83% electric in a 100 mile Hybrid. Every other trip has been much less than that. The median trip I do is probably about 3 miles and frequently do 35 miles too. All perfectly fine with even 50 mile range
  • EricMears
    EricMears Posts: 3,230
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    mmmmikey wrote: »
    Worth remembering too that caravanners don't go home every night so public charging infrastructure is essential, both en route and at point of destination. Destination is easy enough as most sites have electric hook ups and its just a question of progressively upgrading this to meet increased demand - although this will take time and cost money.

    ........

    I'll be happy to pay a premium to reduce emissions, but I can't stretch to a £50k Jaguar.
    Although caravan sites usually have electric hook-ups available and tend to use a 16A socket, it's very rare to find anywhere near that available to use. A 'granny lead' usually needs 10A and you'd be quite lucky to find a 10A supply never mind a bit more than that to run lights, fridge cooker, TV etc..

    You might need to stretch a bit further for that Jag. I believe current list price is more like £70k and it will be several years before secondhand models get down to £50k
    NE Derbyshire.4kWp S Facing 17.5deg slope (dormer roof).24kWh of Pylontech batteries with Lux controller BEV : Hyundai Ioniq5
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,713
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    Close, but no cigar, yet.

    Concerns as EU bank balks at plan to halt fossil fuel investments
    The European Investment Bank (EIB) has balked at a proposal to halt new investments in fossil fuels, raising concerns that Germany and other nations are plotting to water down what would be one of the financial sector’s most ambitious climate moves.

    The EIB, the largest public bank in the world, announced this year that it would end lending to new gas projects, having already curtailed funding for coal and oil. This would free up more money for renewable energy developments. The details of the plan were expected to be confirmed by a board meeting of EU finance ministers on Tuesday but last-minute lobbying has forced a postponement.

    Executives of the bank, which is owned by EU member states, said the plan was still on course and would probably be approved next month.
    The EIB says it has provided more than €65bn of new financing for renewable energy projects, but the bank’s president, Werner Hoyer, has called for more urgency. “We believe that gas emissions are too high and cannot be maintained. We must move out of these fossil fuels. We are aware it takes a transition period. We are aware that it takes help for the regions that are dependent on coal and gas. But one should not hide behind these arguments in order to perpetuate the use of these types of materials,” he said in a recent interview.
    Yet the world of finance continues to move in the opposite direction, particularly in the private sector. In a weeklong investigation, the Guardian revealed the world’s largest investment banks and asset management companies had aggressively expanded into new coal, oil and gas projects since the 2016 Paris climate agreement. The governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, has warned that many of these assets will be left stranded, leading to bankruptcies and a growing risk of a global financial crash.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,713
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    22 more BYD-ADL electric buses for London
    BYD’s British partnership with ADL has delivered another 22 electric buses to Transport for London (TfL) operator Go-Ahead London. The latter has now received a total of 98 electric buses from BYD ADL with a new model being on the way.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
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