Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

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  • LittleVermin
    LittleVermin Posts: 737
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    edited 11 June 2012 at 2:32PM
    rosy111 wrote: »
    Hi there,
    I have been with Shell Domestic LPG Gas for 7 years until it was bought by Avanti.
    Avanti have sent me a new Mains Gas Supply Agreement out of the blue<snip>

    My problem is that I have 2 tanks in My Garden which are used by 3 other houses too ie linked, and wonder if this form is infact correct as surely due to the new competition rules, we should sign a joint agreement as if I wasn't happy with the prices have to have the other 3 houses agree before we could change companies and be supplied elsewhere, however if my contract is just starting but someone elses has only 6 months left etc, then this means that none of us will ever be in the same position and therefore are unable to change supplier without breaking the terms of the agreement.
    <snip>

    Welcome to the forum.

    Sorry to hear about the problems. I have no useful advice except go to see your neighbours (today!) and ask them to send NOTHING back to Avanti nor agree anything verbally until you have all taken advice - and are acting together. As you rightly say, you could all be locked into a never-ending rolling set of contracts. Other people on this forum have mentioned this happening - with even someone renting a property on a metered estate being refused any LPG until they signed a 2 yr contract .... which, of course, tied the whole estate in for another 2 years. (The householders on the estate had organised themselves with a spokesperson and were about to change suppliers - from Flogas. What a surprise! See here.).

    I think it quite possible that Avanti has sent out new documentation to you and the other 3 owners simultaneously - hence this quick reply. I'm sure others with relevant experience will provide fuller advice.
    ..
  • fleurh
    fleurh Posts: 17 Forumite
    edited 11 June 2012 at 4:52PM
    mbday wrote: »
    Avanti have offered me (as individual consumer) 42.9 ppl fixed for 6 months or 44.9 ppl fixed for 12. There is a "price cap" of 5ppl in any 6 month period thereafter. As a group they have offered 39ppl for 1 year with 5p cap as above. Haven't investigated tank rental charge. Flogas' was £70 per year.

    Following advice elsewhere on the forum, I've contacted other suppliers I found off the UKLPG website (can't post links yet - put 'UKLPG' into google and enter your post code at the bottom of the page). The site listed Avanti, BP, and Flogas in addition to Calor, who I am trying to switch away from (see post #1476). I've summarised below the offers they made. In each case I explained that my tank installation no longer met building regs and that the tanks would have to be resited and replaced, and the pipework would need to be upgraded.

    I'm just south of Reading in the South-East, post code RG7.


    1) BP Gas: 0845 300 0038
    • Will not take on our 450L tanks as no longer manufacture them
    2) Avanti Gas: 0808 208 0000 - were Shell Gas.
    • Spoke to Debbie Jefferson. Very helpful. Assuming >5,000 litres per year usage, quoted 42.9ppl fixed for 6 months, 44.9ppl fixed for 12 months. 2 year contract. Price is capped to increase not more than 5 pence in any 6 months. [MDAY, same price as you were quoted by the sound of it]
    • Avanti offered to re-site/replace the tanks - at Avanti expense. Got an engineer visiting 22-June to check over the site.
    3) Flogas: 0800 574 574
    • Assuming > 5,000 litres per year usage, quoted 43.89 ppl fixed for 6 months, £70 tank rental.
    • No cap - but guarantee to not raise the price more than 5ppl in a 12 month period unless you can prove to the consumer that the price of LPG/price from refineries has 'soared' - definition of 'soared' to be covered in Ts and Cs (will need careful reading!)
    • If Flogas have to resite/replace tanks there would be an additional cost. New tank standard size is 1,410 litre. Estimated up to £400 + VAT for new tank + pipework.
    Assuming I don't get anywhere with Calor, I am seriously considering Avanti as an alternative supplier, but would be keen to hear of anyone else's stories before making a decision.
  • LittleVermin
    LittleVermin Posts: 737
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    edited 13 June 2012 at 6:51PM
    fleurh wrote: »
    Following advice elsewhere on the forum, I've contacted other suppliers I found off the UKLPG website (can't post links yet - put 'UKLPG' into google and enter your post code at the bottom of the page). The site listed Avanti, BP, and Flogas in addition to Calor, who I am trying to switch away from (see post #1476). <snip>
    I'm just south of Reading in the South-East, post code RG7.

    <snip>
    Assuming I don't get anywhere with Calor, I am seriously considering Avanti as an alternative supplier, but would be keen to hear of anyone else's stories before making a decision.

    ONLY members of UKLPG come up when you put a postcode in http://www.uklpg.org - and not all suppliers choose to pay the membership fees. And anyway you can buy bulk LPG through farmers' co-ops (without being a farmer! Here's a relevant post from HateLPG - old but good! the post, that is!).

    RG7 looks to be outside the delivery area of HBS Fuels (near Andover - website here) and Rose Gas (in Sussex), both independents which forum users have said good things about. HBS doesn't even insist on a contract (see here - and their website). Since the independents will know of each other you could ring HBS and see if they are interested - since you use 5000 litres a year - or if they can suggest another independent nearer you.

    APOLOGIES. I've checked and no-one (I believe) has mentioned getting their LPG from Rose Gas. It was another independent supplier, NOT a customer, who mentioned Rose Gas to me. Please see my later post here, commenting on ironnick's experience.
    ..
  • HateLPG
    HateLPG Posts: 464
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    edited 11 June 2012 at 5:59PM
    fleurh wrote: »
    [in respect of Flogas offer]
    • No cap - but guarantee to not raise the price more than 5ppl in a 12 month period unless you can prove to the consumer that the price of LPG/price from refineries has 'soared' - definition of 'soared' to be covered in Ts and Cs (will need careful reading!)
    The required "careful reading" can be found here (Paragraph 5.7) and my interpretation of what this means in reality can be found in my recent posts here and here.

    I believe that "soared" is a subjective term in this case: Flogas will have the contractual right to increase your price if the refinery price increases by so much as 0.01ppl in any calendar month; Whether or not they choose to is another matter. In fact, I would go so far as to say that (although indefinable) to use the term "soared" in this context is, at best, downright disingenuous.

    All that said, I think it is fair to say that prices, by any reasonable test, have soared on a number of occassions in the past couple of years (see graph); The important question is what happens when prices un soar (i.e. fall significantly)?.

    As always with LPG suppliers, it's a case of "caveat emptor".
  • ironnick
    ironnick Posts: 20 Forumite
    Well I'm now out of contract with Flogas. I just phoned them for a quote. I pointed out I was an existing customer. I was quoted .68ppl. I quite literally fell of the chair laughing!!
    I helpfully told the lady I'd previously been quoted .44ppl by Rose Gas (it said 46.9ppl + Vat when the contract arrived!) and that Avanti had just quoted me .429ppl for a 6 month contract and .4496 for a 12 month contract. Tank rental at £105pa. VAT was not discussed. In both instances with Avanti there is a get out clause were there to be an increase of more than 5ppl. Apparently they had a rep in the area (don't they always!) tomorrow who could do the site visit. I shall offter the same terms to Rose Gas tomorrow and go with them, provided they can match the offer.
    I felt a bit sorry for the polite lady from Flogas. She did come back to me to say she could try and match the price. It was all I could do to stop calling them a bunch of Shysters!!!!
    ATB,
    IN
  • LittleVermin
    LittleVermin Posts: 737
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    edited 12 June 2012 at 5:24PM
    Today:
    ironnick wrote: »
    Well I'm now out of contract with Flogas. I just phoned them for a quote. <snip>
    I helpfully told the lady I'd previously been quoted .44ppl by Rose Gas (it said 46.9ppl + Vat when the contract arrived!) <snip>

    April 24:
    ironnick wrote: »
    I've just spokek to John Rose about his quote, pointing out that his tank rental charge was a bit on the expensive side. He made an immediate apology and mentioned clumsey fingers. It's £120 pa. Please bear this in mind. Looks like Rose gas then, if they provide the same get out clause. Still waiting for Flogas to get back to me.

    April 23:
    ironnick wrote: »
    Well my contract with Flogas is up on 02/06. I'm in East Sussex (TN7).

    RoseGas quotes the following
    Our rental charge for underground tanks is £220.00 per year + VAT at 5% , which I think more than you are paying at present, <snip> The present price for LPG will be 48pence per litre + VAT. We do monitor gas prices so that our prices go down as well as up.
    <snip> The tank is below ground in the rear garden (no issues there) and I take two fillongs pa. I think it's 2000lt (but not sure) ..

    Today (again):
    ironnick wrote: »
    <snip> Avanti had just quoted me .429ppl for a 6 month contract and .4496 for a 12 month contract. Tank rental at £105pa. VAT was not discussed. In both instances with Avanti there is a get out clause were there to be an increase of more than 5ppl. Apparently they had a rep in the area (don't they always!) tomorrow who could do the site visit. I shall offter the same terms to Rose Gas tomorrow and go with them, provided they can match the offer.
    <snip>

    I - probably all of us! - will be very interested to hear how you get on if you sign up with Rose Gas. No-one has reported on getting their gas from them (I had only heard from another independent). Certainly if at the end of April they quoted you 48ppl and now you have a contract for 46.9ppl their prices do go down as they claim (which is not what the majors' prices appear to have done with the current fall since the peak in March - see graph here. But maybe someone can tell us of a letter from a major supplier telling them good news?).

    Avanti may only increase their prices - from a low initial offer - having undercut other quotes. I suspect Rose Gas has a different business model - the same used by some other independents e.g. overtly by Extra Fuel (see their email you quoted on April 23) and, I presume, by Cardiff Gas - which is the wholesale price plus their mark-up for their costs and profit. So I think it is unrealistic to expect Rose Gas to match Avanti's price and price rise guarantee. But I'd certainly be careful if a figure of £220 for tank rental was due to clumsiness, and the price you thought you'd agreed on wasn't the price on the written quote.
    ..
  • rosy111
    rosy111 Posts: 7 Forumite
    Welcome to the forum.

    Sorry to hear about the problems. I have no useful advice except go to see your neighbours (today!) and ask them to send NOTHING back to Avanti nor agree anything verbally until you have all taken advice - and are acting together. As you rightly say, you could all be locked into a never-ending rolling set of contracts. Other people on this forum have mentioned this happening - with even someone renting a property on a metered estate being refused any LPG until they signed a 2 yr contract .... which, of course, tied the whole estate in for another 2 years. (The householders on the estate had organised themselves with a spokesperson and were about to change suppliers

    LittleVermin, Many thanks for your prompt reply.
    I have now checked with my neighbours who have not recieved a contract to sign like I have, nor have they recieved a letter of a price increase either as AVANTI said had been sent.
    When I challenged the extra price on the new contract that was 4p per litre more, they agreed to send the original price increase letter, I have recieved this now, but rather than it being a copy of their supposed letter to 'me' it was just a Mock standard letter and not a photocopy of my actual letter (if indeed it ever existed)! it had Name Adress1 address2 adress3 etc, where the typist was supposed to fill out my details, but hadn't which leads me to believe they are lying and indeed I have never been sent said letter.
    I have sent a Direct Debit form to them and am up to date with my bills, however my last letter recieved yesterday 12th June, reads:
    Please complete the Credit Application, Direct Debit Mandate and Supply Agreement within 7 working days of the date of this letter TO PREVENRT DISCONNECTION OF YOUR SUPPLY !!!!!
    Are they entitled to disconnect me if I don't send these documents, as I have said in my last post, I have been with Shell and now Avanti for 7 years now without hearing from them since buying my property.
  • Mister_G
    Mister_G Posts: 1,923
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    ONLY members of UKLPG come up when you put a postcode in http://www.uklpg.org - and not all suppliers choose to pay the membership fees. And anyway you can buy bulk LPG through farmers' co-ops (without being a farmer! Here's a relevant post from HateLPG - old but good! the post, that is!).

    RG7 looks to be outside the delivery area of HBS Fuels (near Andover - website here) and Rose Gas (in Sussex), both independents which forum users have said good things about. HBS doesn't even insist on a contract (see here - and their website). Since the independents will know of each other you could ring HBS and see if they are interested - since you use 5000 litres a year - or if they can suggest another independent nearer you.
    ..

    Just rang HBS for 800litres. They quoted me 45ppl, but said that it was still falling slightly (I think that they said it was 48ppl last month). They suggested that I hung on for a bit if I could. My last fill from them in February (1000 litres) was 45ppl.
  • fleurh
    fleurh Posts: 17 Forumite
    edited 13 June 2012 at 5:11PM
    Cap clause - just been talking to an engineer from Extrafuel, (extragas) who mentioned that it would be wise to check the date when any price cap STARTS - i.e. if a contract includes a price fixed for the first 12 months, but also includes a capped price element, to check if the capped price starts from the END of the fixed price deal or from the BEGINNING of the fixed price deal. The situation could mean, for example, if there was a price fixed for 12 months and a cap of 5ppl in any 6 months after that 12 month period, that as soon as the 12 months is up the price jumps 5p. He was trying to be helpful because he'd seen that done by another supplier a few years ago and not in any way suggesting that this is the case with Avanti.

    In any case, as HateLPG points out - the cap doesn't stop the price going up as soon as you're out of the fixed price deal - just means you can get out of the contact if it goes up MORE than 5p in that 6 months.
    rosy111 wrote: »
    Hi there,
    I have been with Shell Domestic LPG Gas for 7 years until it was bought by Avanti.
    Avanti have sent me a new Mains Gas Supply Agreement out of the blue, (even though they have been taking our payments for some while now without any agreement prior to this being made), to sign up for 2 years at 47p inc VAT which is able to change within 6 months to a different level if the prices should increase plus meter rental at £5.00per month........

    Rosy111, are you able to check the Avanti contract you received, to verify if the cap starts from the end of the first year or from the beginning?
  • HateLPG
    HateLPG Posts: 464
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    fleurh wrote: »
    To anyone considering Avanti - just been talking to an engineer from Extrafuel, (extragas) who unfortunately can't supply us until we've got our tank issues sorted out - he mentioned that it would be wise to check the date when the cap that Avanti promise STARTS - i.e. they are promising a price fixed for the first 12 months, but may also start the cap deal from the same date, so that as soon as the 12 months is up the price jumps 5p.

    Apparently this was a trick of a previous supplier.

    This is not a trick at all. The price is fixed for 12 months. After that, your supplier (in this case Avanti) may increase the price at anytime should they so wish. They may choose not to do so, depending on a number of factors. They may also increase the price by more than the stated amount, in which case you would be free to terminate your contract should you so wish.

    Note also, that (taking 5p per 6 months as an example) price increases may not necessarily occur all in one go. You may receive an increase of say 2ppl on Jan 1st (for simplicity) and another increase of 3ppl on April 1st. That means that within the terms of the contract, the next increases they can impose without giving you rights of termination would be just 2ppl on 1st July and 3ppl on 1st October. Remember, it's a maximum increase of 5ppl in any six-month period.

    Hope that clarifies things.!
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