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  • FIRST POST
    • MSE Karl
    • By MSE Karl 31st Oct 17, 5:13 PM
    • 93Posts
    • 31Thanks
    MSE Karl
    Smart Meters
    • #1
    • 31st Oct 17, 5:13 PM
    Smart Meters 31st Oct 17 at 5:13 PM
    Hi!

    This is the discussion thread for the


    Click reply below to discuss. If you haven’t already, join the forum to reply.
    Last edited by MSE Andrea; 09-11-2017 at 2:25 PM.
Page 20
    • mbmonty
    • By mbmonty 14th Apr 18, 8:11 PM
    • 138 Posts
    • 82 Thanks
    mbmonty
    Npower Deemed Appointment CRAP!
    Hengus you are right on the money!

    Today the BBC R4 MoneyBox programme was discussing the disgusting behaviour of NPower who were sending out so called "deemed appointments" for when they will come and install a smart DUMB meter WITHOUT CONSENT.

    In some cases they will turn up at people's homes without being invited!

    The DEEMED appointments did not inform consumers that they had a choice of NO DUMB METER only that they could CONFIRM or AMEND the appointment. Contributors to the programme said they ignored the communications because they had already told Npower that they did NOT want a DUMB meter and were then told that they were coming to change the meter on a given date that they had not agreed to.

    Of course they were furious, they pointed out that they are Adults who have decided they DO NOT WANT ONE OF THESE DUMB METERS.

    As usual OFGEM was as USELESS as it always is; in report to MP's last year they actually encouraged deemed appointments and then they say some BS along the lines of "if the customer experience of deemed appointment is found to not be positive we hope Npower would take that into consideration. WT?

    OFGEM use Blairishly stupid terms like "Installation Journey", don't they get it, we do not want it installed so they is no bloody installation, as for the so called journey, it is harassment. The more they harass and push the more people will push back.

    We all know they are trying to dump a load of crap SMET1 meters that were defunct before they bought them and if we change supplier they will become bricks until they are updated at the end of 2019. You can be SURE they will not be updated by the end of 2019, think about it, what is their priority, putting in naff meters or updating millions of naff meters they already put in. So of course consumers DO NOT TRUST the idiots forcing these Dumb Meters on them.

    Honestly, I have always said that these OFxxxx organisations are completely USELESS but this takes the biscuit. They are imposing the costs of these DUMB meters on us but not FORCING the industry to pass on the billions they save to us.

    So far they have installed under 10 million of the 46 million target for DUMB meters and because they face fines they are ramping up the pressure with this dodgy practice of deemed appointments.

    Considering when the programme started and the deadline of end of 2019, it is clear that they are going to fail to reach the target, so let!!!8217;s just fine them with a credit of 200 for every customer now and then scrap the project.

    It is bad enough the pointless Smart Energy GB waste 43 MILLION per annum of our money. Their repetitive gave a bunch of stupid comments ignoring the points put to him. He even had the audacity to compare the Smeg1 update to an IOS update on his phone, what a twit.

    The programme pointed out that the Government's own cost-benefit analysis estimated that the Energy Industry will save most of the savings and consumers get sweet FA, apparently the energy companies save between 8bn and 10bn but there is no commitment to pass this on.

    Their representative confirmed THAT IT IS THE INDUSTRY THAT BENEFITS NOT THE CONSUMER with some LAME HOPE that once the meters are all installed the energy companies will reduce prices.

    Steve Playle of Chartered Trading Standard Institute said that they feel that this is an "Aggressive Practice that could fall foul of consumer protection for unfair trading regulations because they are

    Significantly impair consumer freedom choice.

    Limit consumer!!!8217;s ability to make an informed decision.

    Do not stipulate that it is an option to refuse.

    Restrict customer choice;

    OFGEM did say that they should not be given to vulnerable customers, they have no idea who is and is not vulnerable when they send these deemed appointments out.

    They use BS terms like "Respond accordingly"; what the hell does that mean, it is about as subjective as you can get!

    They say that suppliers are obliged to act fairly and honestly, but if you say NO they put you on a "higher pressure to be applied" list as confirmed by Hengus above.

    We should be able to inform the energy company once and for all that we DO NOT WANT a DUMB meter and that should be that. I am going to tell my supplier that and inform that they any further attempts to contact me on the matter will be considered as harassment and they do not have permission to "market" smart meters to me in future as I am OPTING OUT.

    I am going to build an industrial strength enclosure around my meter and supply then put a massive padlock on the door to meter cupboard. Plus pin a notice that consent and permission is NOT granted to change the meter and any attempt to do so will be deemed as harassment.

    I do not want Smet1, Smet2 or any of these cheapo Indian commercial meters that have been mentioned in this thread. If they manage to sneak one in I will turn off my power and apply 390v to it from a device I got off ebay for projects, that should fry the innards and make it useless.

    Oh and if you thought it was just Npower, sorry, no, they quoted 4 other companies that have done it or plan to do it, so this is just the start.

    When you listen to this you really get an idea of what we are up against

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09z06z7


    Last edited by mbmonty; 14-04-2018 at 8:22 PM.
    • brijanhub
    • By brijanhub 16th Apr 18, 6:43 AM
    • 7 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    brijanhub
    No, is the answer. If each room had its own meter then that would show the usage in that room, a smart meter is no better.
    • pineapple
    • By pineapple 16th Apr 18, 10:18 AM
    • 6,273 Posts
    • 30,085 Thanks
    pineapple
    Isn't the effort to get us all on smart meters going to fall apart anyway? I understand this is all happening under some grand EU plan.
    But we are leaving the EU. Allegedly.

    This article is a year old but it is interesting what they say about the UK
    http://www.modernpowersystems.com/features/featureeuropean-smart-metering-rollout-progresses-slowly-5886908/
    Last edited by pineapple; 16-04-2018 at 10:25 AM.
    • mbmonty
    • By mbmonty 16th Apr 18, 12:42 PM
    • 138 Posts
    • 82 Thanks
    mbmonty
    I wish!

    European Union member states are legally obliged to turn 80% of legacy meter stock to smart by 2020 following a European Commission directive issued by Brussels in 2006. Some countries are steaming ahead while others like Germany are looking at 2027 for completion. The EU do not really care, this just gives them yet another stick to beat member states with and to justify their spend.

    In France they are steaming ahead, over 35 million installed already, there was a campaign against them but they have an interesting ploy, they will not force you to have one during the deployment period but after that you have no choice and if that was not enough, you will be charged 35 for old type meters to be read when main deployment is finished. I suspect that we are/will be subject to the same rules it is just that for now they want to pretend it is all wonderful and bright.

    Anyway all EU law is becoming British Law unless we change it per diem and even then only after the transision period if there is one because "nothing is agreed until all is agreed" !!

    So sadly NO!

    I have worked on some pretty large programmes in both private and public sector.

    When I look at the business case for Smart Meters it is very very thin for the consumer, the benefits are intangible at best.

    Sometimes you get a project where they just dare not say what a screw up it is, it then becomes politically dangerous (if you value your job) to even suggest the project should be scrapped because it is no longer going to deliver the assumed benefits of the business case. Yet that is the whole purpose of the regular reviews, to STOP wasting money.

    We have numerous examples, HS2, Smart Meters and the DWP Universal Credit, the latter was such a balls up that they are concurrently running 3 developed systems in tandem.

    With dumb meters we have a PR campaign called Smart Energy GB that costs us over 40m a YEAR, it is nothing less than a propaganda machine. I want to punch them in the face when I hear them say "for no extra cost" in the constant radio ads.

    They implement the project poorly and we have to pay for it, not just the naff kit but concepts, did they really NEED to build their own network and spend upwards of 1.5 BILLION on it? We have hotspots in most places and considering how often these things need to phone home or be updated it seems like overkill to me.

    Then we have the meters themselves, the debacle of SMET1 to SMET2, we then hear of cheapo business meters being used for consumers.

    I wonder if we should be asking the more informed members if this forum who is the best energy company to switch to for the best Smart Meter?

    Do any of these dumb meters have an API for an App so we can have functionality on our phone? I doubt it.

    We also hear of customers getting surprise bills and the energy company saying they have not been able to see the Gas side of the premises for 6 months, but they do not do anything about it, no comms to customer, no sending an engineer, just throw a huge scare bill at the customer.

    We are told SMET2 will roll out in October and of course the usual BS about the old bricks being updated wirelessly as and when, but is it beyond the wit of energy companies to upgraded to SMET2 as they install?

    Or is it that they like SMET1 because they think it will lock a customer in because they will lose functionality when they change supplier?

    We all know that there is no way that they are going to reach the 2019 target date, so when will they come clean? It seems they have already extended the delivery date to 2023, just not officially.

    All this and we are supposed to HOPE that the industry will pass on some of their 12BILLION in assumed savings, yeh right, because they always pass on their savings, without any need for regulation don't they.

    What a bloody mess.
    • Hengus
    • By Hengus 16th Apr 18, 12:57 PM
    • 6,145 Posts
    • 3,936 Thanks
    Hengus
    All this and we are supposed to HOPE that the industry will pass on some of their 12BILLION in assumed savings, yeh right, because they always pass on their savings, without any need for regulation don't they.
    Originally posted by mbmonty
    If only. The last figures given to Parliament were:

    More recently, BEIS published a cost-benefit analysis in which the total estimated cost of the policy by 2030 remained virtually unchanged (11 billion) but the figures for both total estimated gross benefits and net benefits went down: the Government now estimates that this policy will deliver benefits of 16.7 billion and net benefits of 5.8 billion by 2030.

    HoC BRIEFING PAPER
    Number 8119, 20 October 2017

    Fortunately, the whole project is now undergoing a full NAO review where it is expected that the programme cost will again rise; not least, to take into account the additional costs associated with the adoption of SMETS1 meters into the DCC Infrastructure.
    • Michaelw
    • By Michaelw 16th Apr 18, 9:37 PM
    • 166 Posts
    • 51 Thanks
    Michaelw


    In some cases they will turn up at people's homes without being invited!

    As usual OFGEM was as USELESS as it always is

    So far they have installed under 10 million of the 46 million target for DUMB meters and because they face fines they are ramping up the pressure with this dodgy practice of deemed appointments.
    Originally posted by mbmonty
    Its a good excuse to get people on the phone also if these appointments are missed is there any penalty fee? It is not good customer practice and it underlines energy suppliers own self interests.

    It is not surprising OFGEMs standing on this,decisions by these bodies tend to side with companies only giving consumers some small room for manoeuvre.The benefits of these non interoperable meters is overstated and adverts for these devices don't carry any information about possible switching issues,how another supplier will carry out repairs to another companies leased meter or how long before these meters are presumably tunneled onto the DCC network at some later point.
    • silverwhistle
    • By silverwhistle 16th Apr 18, 10:26 PM
    • 2,090 Posts
    • 2,868 Thanks
    silverwhistle
    I've had a letter offering me a smart meter as they are installing them in the area but I will be declining their offer, at least for now. Currently I'm on zero standing charge tariffs as I'm a very low user (solar panels and wood burner) but at some stage in the next few years I'd like to get an EV so would be changing tariff. There is no way I'd have a SMETS1 meter.

    I've got my own monitor for electricity, know what I use and pay on receipt of bill, so will never get any surprises. Incidentally, when the agreement between Ebico and SSE broke down SSE said they were going to put me on their standard tariff. This would have involved standing charges less than 50 short of my total current annual fuel bill!
    • savik2
    • By savik2 17th Apr 18, 3:02 AM
    • 4 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    savik2
    I wonder if one of you lovely Smart meter experts would be kind enough to tell me which energy suppliers will fit a decent Smart meter - expressly NOT the useless Secure Liberty rubbish just installed by my current supplier to replace the admittedly faulty but far superior smart meters previously provided by EDF.

    My next switch, which will happen as soon as this one has finally been concluded (it's taken 4 months and counting), will be dependent upon the new supplier fitting equipment that I can actually read. EDF's in-home monitor was excellent, and I could pull the meter readings with a press of a button, meaning I didn't have to struggle with my awkwardly sited meter cupboards. (Interestingly, the Secure installer was very keen to take the EDF in-home unit off my hands - he disappeared it so quickly, I can only assume that it might actually have had some value. Kicking myself that I didn't insist that he leave it with me.)

    Anyway, all water under the bridge now. I just want to get a DECENT, readable set of meters installed, so if anyone can shed light on the best providers to do that, I'd be extremely grateful. (Oh, how I wish I'd never embarked on the whole Smart meter farrago - I'd gladly go back to properly dumb dial models if only they'd let me.)
    • PennineAcute
    • By PennineAcute 17th Apr 18, 3:54 AM
    • 191 Posts
    • 87 Thanks
    PennineAcute
    My now dumb Scottish Power meter is so easy to read and not the Liberty rubbish.

    No buttons need to be pressed (besides the gas light button) on either gas or electricity.

    IHD shows meter reading, kWh for electricity and m^3 for gas.

    Just a shame it is now dumb.
    • mbmonty
    • By mbmonty 17th Apr 18, 7:17 AM
    • 138 Posts
    • 82 Thanks
    mbmonty
    I wonder if we should be asking the more informed members if this forum who is the best energy company to switch to for the best Smart Meter?
    Originally posted by mbmonty
    I wonder if one of you lovely Smart meter experts would be kind enough to tell me which energy suppliers will fit a decent Smart meter - expressly NOT the useless Secure Liberty rubbish just installed by my current supplier to replace the admittedly faulty but far superior smart meters previously provided by EDF.

    My next switch, which will happen as soon as this one has finally been concluded (it's taken 4 months and counting), will be dependent upon the new supplier fitting equipment that I can actually read. EDF's in-home monitor was excellent, and I could pull the meter readings with a press of a button, meaning I didn't have to struggle with my awkwardly sited meter cupboards. (Interestingly, the Secure installer was very keen to take the EDF in-home unit off my hands - he disappeared it so quickly, I can only assume that it might actually have had some value. Kicking myself that I didn't insist that he leave it with me.)

    Anyway, all water under the bridge now. I just want to get a DECENT, readable set of meters installed, so if anyone can shed light on the best providers to do that, I'd be extremely grateful. (Oh, how I wish I'd never embarked on the whole Smart meter farrago - I'd gladly go back to properly dumb dial models if only they'd let me.)
    Originally posted by savik2

    Ha Ha

    That is exactly what I predicted above.

    However, my understanding is that once you have a smart meter installed you are stuck with it, if it is SMET1 it is not going to work with other energy companies kit until at least end of 2019. As I said earlier this will not be a priority for them.

    I am not recommending it, but if you did change to the best supplier for IHD and then applied a high voltage short to it (using kit freely available on ebay) you could then complain about it being unsafe! The new company would have a duty to replace it.
    • mbmonty
    • By mbmonty 17th Apr 18, 7:32 AM
    • 138 Posts
    • 82 Thanks
    mbmonty
    I've had a letter offering me a smart meter as they are installing them in the area but I will be declining their offer, at least for now. Currently I'm on zero standing charge tariffs as I'm a very low user (solar panels and wood burner) but at some stage in the next few years I'd like to get an EV so would be changing tariff. There is no way I'd have a SMETS1 meter.

    I've got my own monitor for electricity, know what I use and pay on receipt of bill, so will never get any surprises. Incidentally, when the agreement between Ebico and SSE broke down SSE said they were going to put me on their standard tariff. This would have involved standing charges less than 50 short of my total current annual fuel bill!
    Originally posted by silverwhistle
    Which energy company are you with that has no Standing Charge?

    I am in a similar position, being a low user.

    I wanted to get rid of standing charge so I could cut back when budget requires but also so I could spend money on heating not the disgusting standing charge that is being used to fund this DUMB meter project.

    Solarplicity have gone back on their word re standing charges and hiked the rate for low users by 120, it was a core message of their marketing that they did not believe in them, so can't trust ANYTHING they say ever again.

    I thought Ebico only used SSE for support and admin, from your description it sounds as if you are considered to be an SSE customer not Ebico.
    • mbmonty
    • By mbmonty 17th Apr 18, 7:38 AM
    • 138 Posts
    • 82 Thanks
    mbmonty
    My now dumb Scottish Power meter is so easy to read and not the Liberty rubbish.

    No buttons need to be pressed (besides the gas light button) on either gas or electricity.

    IHD shows meter reading, kWh for electricity and m^3 for gas.

    Just a shame it is now dumb.
    Originally posted by PennineAcute

    I think it is likely that different customers will have different preferences, some will want a highly technical one, while others just want the readings.

    Maybe we can create a top 3 for each type of user

    A good place to start might be the demos on youtube:

    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=smart+meter+demo
    • mbmonty
    • By mbmonty 17th Apr 18, 7:47 AM
    • 138 Posts
    • 82 Thanks
    mbmonty
    Its a good excuse to get people on the phone also if these appointments are missed is there any penalty fee? It is not good customer practice and it underlines energy suppliers own self interests.

    It is not surprising OFGEMs standing on this,decisions by these bodies tend to side with companies only giving consumers some small room for manoeuvre.The benefits of these non interoperable meters is overstated and adverts for these devices don't carry any information about possible switching issues,how another supplier will carry out repairs to another companies leased meter or how long before these meters are presumably tunneled onto the DCC network at some later point.
    Originally posted by Michaelw
    In France where there was a big campaign against their Linky dumb meter they found the new meter was interferring with consumer equipment, even turning on touch sensitive lights

    There is no penalty fee but some people have reported that they turned up to do work without authority despite the promises that they need permission from customer.

    I agree with you it does undermine the energy company and causes them great reputational damage, you can't be or appearing to be forcing people or disrespecting their rights. One of the reasons people hate Crapita is because of they way they harass people turning up on their doorstep.

    The companies will not attempt to repair anything, as with current meters they will swap them out if faulty. The prices of these devices is artificially high because of the forced nature of the project.

    Years ago before smart meters were thought of I was querying faulty equipment cost and sawt hem on on Alibaba for under $10, probably much cheaper for Energy companies.
    Last edited by mbmonty; 17-04-2018 at 10:14 AM.
    • savik2
    • By savik2 17th Apr 18, 12:44 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    savik2
    Very prophetic, Mbmonty!
    Ha Ha

    That is exactly what I predicted above.

    However, my understanding is that once you have a smart meter installed you are stuck with it, if it is SMET1 it is not going to work with other energy companies kit until at least end of 2019. As I said earlier this will not be a priority for them.

    I am not recommending it, but if you did change to the best supplier for IHD and then applied a high voltage short to it (using kit freely available on ebay) you could then complain about it being unsafe! The new company would have a duty to replace it.
    Originally posted by mbmonty
    Actually, I had seen your comments through this thread and you were one of the folk I was hoping would respond! It struck me that suppliers on different systems (e.g. EDF vs Octopus) seem very keen on pulling out the first company's Smart meter and putting in their own one. That's why I'd like to ditch my current supplier and their rotten Secure Liberty technology and go to back to another that utilises quality gear, even if it is still SMETS1. Strikes me that the simpler the unit, the easier it will be to upgrade it to hook up to whatever harebrained scheme the Government thinks up post-Brexit. The Scottish Power one sounds OK - I will research so I have a decent list of suppliers to interrogate just as soon as the current switch has gone through.
    • silverwhistle
    • By silverwhistle 17th Apr 18, 3:43 PM
    • 2,090 Posts
    • 2,868 Thanks
    silverwhistle
    Which energy company are you with that has no Standing Charge?
    Originally posted by mbmonty

    I'm still with Ebico, but there was a very confusing hand-over period when the relationship between the two companies ended (I believe it may well have been documented somewhere on MSE!).

    I had to take specific steps to go to Ebico who now have a tie in with Robin Hood Energy. They've recently increased their prices but it's still worth my while to be on a zero standing charge, although any change to my usage patterns (e.g. the EV I mentioned or the GF moving in) would need another review.
    • mbmonty
    • By mbmonty 17th Apr 18, 11:19 PM
    • 138 Posts
    • 82 Thanks
    mbmonty
    I'm still with Ebico, but there was a very confusing hand-over period when the relationship between the two companies ended (I believe it may well have been documented somewhere on MSE!).

    I had to take specific steps to go to Ebico who now have a tie in with Robin Hood Energy. They've recently increased their prices but it's still worth my while to be on a zero standing charge, although any change to my usage patterns (e.g. the EV I mentioned or the GF moving in) would need another review.
    Originally posted by silverwhistle
    If the GF moves in move the bill to her name!!
  • E.ON Company Representative: Malc
    E.ON Smart Meters
    Thanks Malc. My worry here is that Ofgem states that suppliers have to 'take all reasonable steps' to get consumers to accept a smart meter by 2020. Sadly, 'reasonable steps' has not been defined and saying 'No - I do not want a smart meter' to a supplier doesn't actually mean 'No' as Ofgem has made clear to all suppliers in a recent policy letter:

    Quote: We expect suppliers to consider their approach to customer refusals and how they will address these. Suppliers should think about how they will handle both implicit refusals (for example, customers who do not respond to contact attempts) and explicit refusals (for example, customers who actively do not want a meter exchange). Such customers should be re-entered into the engagement strategy, with that strategy evolving to reflect lessons learned on consumer engagement. Unquote

    I read this paragraph as meaning that any customer who has declined to accept a smart meter as a result of Initiative 'A' is immediately re-entered into the smart meter engagement programme when a supplier comes up with Initiative B - the chatty (incentivised) meter reader; or Initiative C -............

    So in truth, consumers do not actually have the right to say "no" in the knowledge that by saying 'no' that is the end of it unless the consumer contacts the supplier. We will have to keep saying 'no' to every marketing scheme that a supplier's smart metering team comes up with.
    Originally posted by Hengus
    I understand where you're coming from Hengus. Our customers can no longer permanently opt out of smart metering communications as were obligated to keep checking with them. This is particularly the case with significant developments like the roll out of SMETS2 meters. As these meters are considerably different from SMETS1, we need to make customers aware of the change.

    As smart meters are optional, customers can reject these offers at any time. As I mentioned above, we won't fit them without the customer's permission and they need to be at home before we can start the installation as the power needs to be turned off for a short time.

    Malc
    Official Company Representative
    I am an official company representative of E.ON. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
    • Michaelw
    • By Michaelw 23rd Apr 18, 10:06 AM
    • 166 Posts
    • 51 Thanks
    Michaelw
    Capita to raise 700m as losses deepen

    Capita has reported a 513.1m annual loss as the outsourcing firm set out plans to revive its indebted business.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43862732

    Smart DCC Ltd is a wholly owned subsidiary of Capita plc and is regulated by Ofgem.

    https://www.smartdcc.co.uk/about-dcc/

    More concerning news with a potential effect on the smart meter programme.
    • RandomQ
    • By RandomQ 23rd Apr 18, 4:42 PM
    • 159 Posts
    • 43 Thanks
    RandomQ
    Capita to raise 700m as losses deepen

    Capita has reported a 513.1m annual loss as the outsourcing firm set out plans to revive its indebted business.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43862732

    Smart DCC Ltd is a wholly owned subsidiary of Capita plc and is regulated by Ofgem.

    https://www.smartdcc.co.uk/about-dcc/

    More concerning news with a potential effect on the smart meter programme.
    Originally posted by Michaelw
    Yes but there is one benefit if Crapita go bust, the TVL will be up in the air!

    I heard on radio this morning about them wanting this money, it seems like a big ask to mem share price has already collapsed and now they want them to fund a so called restructure.

    Crapita screw up so many projects it is hard to keep track and that was before staff started to be let go and many of remaining decided to abandon ship.

    I think Crapita is a "dead man walking" they just do not know it.

    SELL SELL SELL - cut your losses!
    • MeterMan
    • By MeterMan 23rd Apr 18, 7:00 PM
    • 311 Posts
    • 174 Thanks
    MeterMan
    Gas Safe is also ran by capita, or a division of it.
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