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  • FIRST POST
    • MSE Karl
    • By MSE Karl 31st Oct 17, 5:13 PM
    • 93Posts
    • 31Thanks
    MSE Karl
    Smart Meters
    • #1
    • 31st Oct 17, 5:13 PM
    Smart Meters 31st Oct 17 at 5:13 PM
    Hi!

    This is the discussion thread for the


    Click reply below to discuss. If you haven’t already, join the forum to reply.
    Last edited by MSE Andrea; 09-11-2017 at 2:25 PM.
Page 2
    • NineDeuce
    • By NineDeuce 10th Nov 17, 1:00 PM
    • 939 Posts
    • 850 Thanks
    NineDeuce
    Smart meters are emphatically NOT free. We all pay for them. We pay for them even when they go from smart to dumb. We will then pay for them to be replaced or MAYBE actually updated to become smart again. The suppposed savings from installing smart meters has now reduced to less than 20% of what they originally said & as the original savings were very small, once we pay for the rubbish meters they install (which will only last at most a third of the time the old ones did) we definitely are not saving anythiing.

    Time they went back to the drawing board, but I suspect whoever set this up has absolutely no idea what a drawing board is.
    Originally posted by badmemory
    What are your ideas then, other than replacement smart meters?

    Sending a person round to read the meter isnt free either, so if smart meters save money, then technically they are free. Smart meters are clearly having their teething problems in the domestic market, but the idea is sound.
    • Hengus
    • By Hengus 10th Nov 17, 1:42 PM
    • 6,145 Posts
    • 3,936 Thanks
    Hengus
    What are your ideas then, other than replacement smart meters?

    Sending a person round to read the meter isnt free either, so if smart meters save money, then technically they are free. Smart meters are clearly having their teething problems in the domestic market, but the idea is sound.
    Originally posted by NineDeuce
    The idea is sound but the management of the whole £12.7Bn roll out project is flawed. Ofgem has already reduced by 50% the meter reading requirement and this has nothing to do with smart meters.

    These meters are not like for like. Have a read of this informed opinion: (the author gave specialist evidence to a House of Commons Select Committee on smart meters)

    http://www.nickhunn.com/the-uk-may-need-to-replace-20-million-smart-meters/

    We are all paying for this shambles in the form of higher than necessary bills.
    • NineDeuce
    • By NineDeuce 10th Nov 17, 1:55 PM
    • 939 Posts
    • 850 Thanks
    NineDeuce
    The idea is sound but the management of the whole £12.7Bn roll out project is flawed. Ofgem has already reduced by 50% the meter reading requirement and this has nothing to do with smart meters.

    These meters are not like for like. Have a read of this informed opinion: (the author gave specialist evidence to a House of Commons Select Committee on smart meters)

    http://www.nickhunn.com/the-uk-may-need-to-replace-20-million-smart-meters/

    We are all paying for this shambles in the form of higher than necessary bills.
    Originally posted by Hengus
    Despite an informed opinion article, you didnt answer my question. I asked about what we should do about it other than replace the meters. It is easy to post a hyperlink.

    Ofgem reducing meter read requirements is not a solution.
    • Hengus
    • By Hengus 10th Nov 17, 2:16 PM
    • 6,145 Posts
    • 3,936 Thanks
    Hengus
    What are your ideas then, other than replacement smart meters?

    Sending a person round to read the meter isnt free either, so if smart meters save money, then technically they are free. Smart meters are clearly having their teething problems in the domestic market, but the idea is sound.
    Originally posted by NineDeuce
    Look at other countries. Germany has, after years of internal debate, concluded that there is no benefit giving smart meters to households than consume less than 6600kWhs/year. Why? Simply, because smart meters have little to do with accurate bills or meter readers jobs. They are needed to match supply with demand. Low energy users offer little in the way of potential savings to the Grid. We could also have reduced the cost by going for very simple meters that do not have built in remote disconnection. To protect us all from third-party remote disconnects which could cause extensive damage to the Grid, GCHQ has had to come up with a multi-layered and expensive cyber security package. Read the article and you will see how other countries have rolled out a much cheaper smart meter package in a much shorter timeframe. Our programme is over budget; overly complex and very late. The various delays now mean that far more SMETS1 meters have been deployed than was ever envisaged; the jury is still out on whether all the 7M meters deployed to date will have to be replaced. Even if the adoption works, the cost of the SMETS1 meter Data Communications Company adoption programme will be an added cost to £12.7Bn in the Government’s own cost assumptions.

    It’s all in the link and in other similar expert pieces of information.
    • NineDeuce
    • By NineDeuce 10th Nov 17, 2:48 PM
    • 939 Posts
    • 850 Thanks
    NineDeuce
    Look at other countries. Germany has, after years of internal debate, concluded that there is no benefit giving smart meters to households than consume less than 6600kWhs/year. Why? Simply, because smart meters have little to do with accurate bills or meter readers jobs. They are needed to match supply with demand. Low energy users offer little in the way of potential savings to the Grid. We could also have reduced the cost by going for very simple meters that do not have built in remote disconnection. To protect us all from third-party remote disconnects which could cause extensive damage to the Grid, GCHQ has had to come up with a multi-layered and expensive cyber security package. Read the article and you will see how other countries have rolled out a much cheaper smart meter package in a much shorter timeframe. Our programme is over budget; overly complex and very late. The various delays now mean that far more SMETS1 meters have been deployed than was ever envisaged; the jury is still out on whether all the 7M meters deployed to date will have to be replaced. Even if the adoption works, the cost of the SMETS1 meter Data Communications Company adoption programme will be an added cost to £12.7Bn in the Government’s own cost assumptions.

    It’s all in the link and in other similar expert pieces of information.
    Originally posted by Hengus
    I've read it and what you say... and basically.. you are just saying that it hasnt been rolled out very efficiently. That's fine, but it isnt an alternative solution. What is the alternative to smart meters?

    I dont really understand what you mean by they are about supply and demand. Smart meters are primarily used to identify energy savings through usage trends. They dont save alone. It depends on the actions of the end user. The feasibility of installing a meter on a domestic property, based on potential energy savings alone is not great.

    But then again, what is done under the current system?

    And to say that smart meters have got little to do with accurate bills is nonsense. That is one of their inherent purposes. The cost of sending operatives to read meters is one part. Estimated billing is a big issue. Manual meter readings still cause problems as estimated bills can still be produced if reads are not sent in alignment with bills.

    Commercial half hourly metering works absolutely fine and without fuss.
    • Hengus
    • By Hengus 10th Nov 17, 3:36 PM
    • 6,145 Posts
    • 3,936 Thanks
    Hengus
    I've read it and what you say... and basically.. you are just saying that it hasnt been rolled out very efficiently. That's fine, but it isnt an alternative solution. What is the alternative to smart meters?

    I dont really understand what you mean by they are about supply and demand. Smart meters are primarily used to identify energy savings through usage trends. They dont save alone. It depends on the actions of the end user. The feasibility of installing a meter on a domestic property, based on potential energy savings alone is not great.

    But then again, what is done under the current system?

    And to say that smart meters have got little to do with accurate bills is nonsense. That is one of their inherent purposes. The cost of sending operatives to read meters is one part. Estimated billing is a big issue. Manual meter readings still cause problems as estimated bills can still be produced if reads are not sent in alignment with bills.

    Commercial half hourly metering works absolutely fine and without fuss.
    Originally posted by NineDeuce
    Matching supply with consumer demand has the potential to reduce costs. At the moment, the Govt has to buy ‘just in case it is needed’ standby power and, in times of plenty, pay wind and and solar generators hard cash to stop generating power. The perceived advantage of smart meters is a Smart Grid with variable pricing (known as time of use tariffs). The aim is to smooth out peaks by ‘encouraging’ consumers through pricing to use energy when it is in plentiful supply. The problem with this for most low energy users is that they do not have the flexibility to make use of low cost power; eg, not many consumers on benefits use tumble dryers. Based on customer experiences in Victoria and Ontario, low energy users will see an increase in the annual electricity cost.

    To achieve a Smart Grid, all consumers need to have a smart meter and the industry needs 30 minute meter readings. In Victoria, where smart meters were mandated, the $2BN project was massively over budget and the benefits massively over assessed. A lot of the cost overrun was down to project delays. If a project runs a year late, employees still have to be paid. It is now assessed that the predicted savings will be in the order of a $319M additional cost on customer energy bills; ie, total project savings - total project cost = an additional $319M.

    This project is little to do with accurate billing. This is just Gaz and Leccy ‘spin’to get consumers onboard. All my bills are 100% accurate.
    • badmemory
    • By badmemory 10th Nov 17, 5:05 PM
    • 1,987 Posts
    • 2,738 Thanks
    badmemory

    This project is little to do with accurate billing. This is just Gaz and Leccy ‘spin’to get consumers onboard. All my bills are 100% accurate.
    Originally posted by Hengus
    As are all my bills without a smart meter too. As for the Gaz & Leccy ads the lies in these are unfortunately implicit & not explicit therefore they cannot be forced to tell the truth.

    My concern is the number of threads on here now which are saying we had a smart meter fitted & changed supplier & obviously the smart meter became very dumb. BUT the new supplier then came & fitted ANOTHER one. We are all paying for this incompetence.

    I actually, mistakenly obviously, thought that having a smart meter fitted would mean that changing supplier should be easier because after all even if it did become dumb the original supplier should have the final reading - not true - or if it is they aren't parting.

    When we get proper smart meters installed I did hope that we should be able to change suppliers (or time it anyway) to the minute with no problems, that would seem to be a lot more than ambitious, more like not a cat in h***'s chance.
    • House Martin
    • By House Martin 10th Nov 17, 5:21 PM
    • 1,428 Posts
    • 1,192 Thanks
    House Martin
    As are all my bills without a smart meter too. As for the Gaz & Leccy ads the lies in these are unfortunately implicit & not explicit therefore they cannot be forced to tell the truth.

    My concern is the number of threads on here now which are saying we had a smart meter fitted & changed supplier & obviously the smart meter became very dumb. BUT the new supplier then came & fitted ANOTHER one. We are all paying for this incompetence.

    I actually, mistakenly obviously, thought that having a smart meter fitted would mean that changing supplier should be easier because after all even if it did become dumb the original supplier should have the final reading - not true - or if it is they aren't parting.

    When we get proper smart meters installed I did hope that we should be able to change suppliers (or time it anyway) to the minute with no problems, that would seem to be a lot more than ambitious, more like not a cat in h***'s chance.
    Originally posted by badmemory
    I think this problem refers to just one type of smart meter, the Liberty Secure meters. I have been reading other smart meter manufactures such as Landis Gyr , Siemens and Elster where they are dumb and the gaining supplier is happy with them.Secure Meters for some reason cannot be used in smart prepay mode by other suppliers and have to be exchanged.
    The old prepay meters had quite a few makes which all used smart key or smart card and were never exchanged on switching.
    OFGEM have maybe missed a trick in not specifying to the suppliers that only certain makes can be used, but this is the first time that individual suppliers, no matter how small, were in charge of which meter they purchased and installed.
    Before that it was mostly controlled by the DNO s.
    Suppliers like Utilita and Ovo were the first to start using the worlds worst smart meter, Secure Liberty, but incredibly Eon have also switched from the well made Swiss Landis Gyr to these monstrosities. These suppliers have little regard for their customers in selecting these meters.
    I have been listening to lousy feedback from customers for many years now about how impossible they are to read especially when they are positioned in awkward hard to reach places and so far I have never seen an IHD in use by customers I visit.They have all rightfully binned them
    Last edited by House Martin; 29-03-2018 at 3:42 PM.
    • EachPenny
    • By EachPenny 10th Nov 17, 6:53 PM
    • 6,697 Posts
    • 17,982 Thanks
    EachPenny
    Despite an informed opinion article, you didnt answer my question. I asked about what we should do about it other than replace the meters. It is easy to post a hyperlink.

    Ofgem reducing meter read requirements is not a solution.
    Originally posted by NineDeuce
    What is wrong with asking/expecting consumers to provide regular (monthly?) readings and verify the readings on a two yearly basis when the 'safety' checks are carried out?

    Consumers can be incentivised to provide the readings by discounted tariffs (they already are) and penalties can be imposed for those who refuse to provide readings and allow access for checks (they already are).

    Energy theft would be reduced far more if there was a real prospect of a random inspection visit so the resources should be redeployed into this.

    The issue is the same as the replacement of traffic police by camera enforcement. The technology is limited in its effectiveness and the human factor (which is what makes a real difference) is disposed of.

    The potential benefits of a smart grid are undeniable, but if that turns out to be as practical as the Tomorrow's World predictions of people commuting by jet pack, then a lot of money is being spent fitting meters which will have been scrapped many years before they are capable of delivering the benefit supposedly paying the cost of installing them.
    "In the future, everyone will be rich for 15 minutes"
    • Nick_C
    • By Nick_C 10th Nov 17, 7:20 PM
    • 4,210 Posts
    • 5,846 Thanks
    Nick_C
    What is wrong with asking/expecting consumers to provide regular (monthly?) readings and verify the readings on a two yearly basis when the 'safety' checks are carried out?.
    Originally posted by EachPenny
    What is wrong with posting someone a cheque? Or riding a horse to work?

    Technology provides us with better ways of doing things.

    I don't want to have to read my meter every month and contact the energy supplier to give them the information.

    I'm delighted with my smart meter. I may never look at it again.
    • EachPenny
    • By EachPenny 10th Nov 17, 8:10 PM
    • 6,697 Posts
    • 17,982 Thanks
    EachPenny
    What is wrong with posting someone a cheque? Or riding a horse to work?

    Technology provides us with better ways of doing things.

    I don't want to have to read my meter every month and contact the energy supplier to give them the information.

    I'm delighted with my smart meter. I may never look at it again.
    Originally posted by Nick_C
    Of course, but technology for technology's sake is pointless. The technology needs to be fit for purpose and solve a genuine problem for it to really be of value.

    I'm sure many people felt the C5 would be a better way of getting to work than riding a horse, but I'd happily bet that more people still ride to work by horse today than ever travelled to work in a C5.

    The Government could have attempted to make the use of a C5 compulsory, but I doubt anyone - other than Sir Clive and Hoover - would have been happy about that.

    I'm sure for people who don't want to read their own meter the suppliers could offer to fit (at cost) a self-reading meter - giving consumers a choice.

    But the confused and ill-justified impostion of technology on consumers, before that technology is properly developed, is nothing more or less than a national scandal.
    "In the future, everyone will be rich for 15 minutes"
    • Nick_C
    • By Nick_C 10th Nov 17, 9:49 PM
    • 4,210 Posts
    • 5,846 Thanks
    Nick_C
    Of course, but technology for technology's sake is pointless. The technology needs to be fit for purpose and solve a genuine problem for it to really be of value.
    Originally posted by EachPenny
    Well my new smart meter does everything I expect of it.
    • badmemory
    • By badmemory 11th Nov 17, 3:20 AM
    • 1,987 Posts
    • 2,738 Thanks
    badmemory
    Well my new smart meter does everything I expect of it.
    Originally posted by Nick_C
    Must be nice to have such low expectations & to never want to change supplier.
    • Hercules Grytpype-Thynne
    • By Hercules Grytpype-Thynne 11th Nov 17, 11:11 AM
    • 76 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    Hercules Grytpype-Thynne
    Do I have to have one?
    I have had an email from npower to say they are coming at the end of the month to fit a smart meter IF I confirm that the date and time are convenient.
    I haven't contacted them yet to confirm or rearrange date and notice there is nothing in their email for me to say I don't want one.

    So...........do I have to have one fitted?
    • Hengus
    • By Hengus 11th Nov 17, 11:20 AM
    • 6,145 Posts
    • 3,936 Thanks
    Hengus
    I have had an email from npower to say they are coming at the end of the month to fit a smart meter IF I confirm that the date and time are convenient.
    I haven't contacted them yet to confirm or rearrange date and notice there is nothing in their email for me to say I don't want one.

    So...........do I have to have one fitted?
    Originally posted by Hercules Grytpype-Thynne
    No - politely, but firmly, decline. Consumers are under no obligation to agree to a smart meter. Think again in 2019 when SMETS2 meters will be the new standard.
    • Nick_C
    • By Nick_C 11th Nov 17, 11:37 AM
    • 4,210 Posts
    • 5,846 Thanks
    Nick_C
    Must be nice to have such low expectations & to never want to change supplier.
    Originally posted by badmemory
    Perhaps my expectations are low.

    Until now, I have done my own meter readings between monthly and quarterly and stored the data on a spreadsheet. I have used this to monitor and estimate consumption, and this factors into choosing the best supplier when I carry out regular reviews.

    So far, the In Home Display and App are giving me far more information than I ever had before. I don't have to read the meter and contact the supplier to give them the information. I'm expecting my bills and payment plans to be more accurate. I expect my meter could offer more complex tariffs than the ones currently available, and I may benefit from these at some time. All this exceeds my simple requirements.

    I've just entered into a two year contract. In two years time, I am optimistic that a data sharing system for the first generation meters will be in place. I will review the market as usual and change suppliers if I need to. Several other suppliers use the same meters as my supplier, and already offer continued functionality on switching.

    I would tend to agree that the implementation of smart meters has been poor, but I think boycotting them is just cutting off your nose to spite your face.
    • badmemory
    • By badmemory 11th Nov 17, 12:18 PM
    • 1,987 Posts
    • 2,738 Thanks
    badmemory


    So far, the In Home Display and App are giving me far more information than I ever had before.
    Originally posted by Nick_C
    Pleased to hear you are happy with your change of meter, but does your IHD give the GAS as only KWH or does it also give the meter readings. Please note that some posters (obviously no idea how true it is which is why I am asking) say that the IHD readings do not give the same readings as the meter. It would be nice to get confirmation or otherwise of that.
    • Nick_C
    • By Nick_C 11th Nov 17, 12:44 PM
    • 4,210 Posts
    • 5,846 Thanks
    Nick_C
    Pleased to hear you are happy with your change of meter, but does your IHD give the GAS as only KWH or does it also give the meter readings. Please note that some posters (obviously no idea how true it is which is why I am asking) say that the IHD readings do not give the same readings as the meter. It would be nice to get confirmation or otherwise of that.
    Originally posted by badmemory
    The IHD only shows consumption in KWh. It doesn't show meter readings. (This is with OVO)
    • brewerdave
    • By brewerdave 12th Nov 17, 9:31 AM
    • 5,106 Posts
    • 2,250 Thanks
    brewerdave
    The IHD only shows consumption in KWh. It doesn't show meter readings. (This is with OVO)
    Originally posted by Nick_C
    So, doesn't actually show the readings that you get charged on? So you are trusting the supplier ,particularly on gas readings. I wouldn't be happy to not be able to cross check the calculations.
    • Nick_C
    • By Nick_C 12th Nov 17, 10:03 AM
    • 4,210 Posts
    • 5,846 Thanks
    Nick_C
    So, doesn't actually show the readings that you get charged on? So you are trusting the supplier ,particularly on gas readings. I wouldn't be happy to not be able to cross check the calculations.
    Originally posted by brewerdave
    You get charged for KWh of energy used. You can see the cm3 values (meter readings) in the app and on the bills when they bill you.
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