Can Faster Payments Be Reversed (UAccount PayPal Problem)
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Once a Faster Payments has been processed and is in the recipient's account, can the receiving bank essentially "reverse" it back to the sender?
I do not mean refund, as in create another transfer back to the sender's account, I mean literally bouncing it / reversing it back to the sender's account.
Why am I asking this?
There was a security problem in UAccount's network, essentially blocking PayPal withdrawals from being credited to customer accounts. PayPal successfully sent our funds to Wirecard (who owns UAccount) but are still yet to receive them in our account.
This has affected all customers, the block was universal on their system.
They said that they will "try" to credit the incoming payments that are missing from before the block was fixed, however they also said there's a possibility the transfers might have to be reversed. However, I assumed that once a Faster Payments transaction was processed, the receiving bank can't bounce it, you'd have to send it back through a fresh transfer.
The problem is, if they re-transfer everyone's payments back to PayPal, their system (PayPal's) won't be able to identify what funds belongs to who, as it will be coming from Wirecard's bank account and not the ones linked to our account. If the actual transfer can still be bounced after completion, there's a chance that PayPal can re-credit our balance and allow us to withdraw it again now the problem is fixed.
Does anyone have any technical knowledge or experience on this? For the time being, I am missing £150 and want UAccount to credit me what I am owed... this is why I've been reluctant to use them as a full-time bank account, as they have ridiculous problems like these. Their customer support is unprofessional as well, using words like "lol" and "haha" when describing the situation and amount of customers who have complained about this.
I do not mean refund, as in create another transfer back to the sender's account, I mean literally bouncing it / reversing it back to the sender's account.
Why am I asking this?
There was a security problem in UAccount's network, essentially blocking PayPal withdrawals from being credited to customer accounts. PayPal successfully sent our funds to Wirecard (who owns UAccount) but are still yet to receive them in our account.
This has affected all customers, the block was universal on their system.
They said that they will "try" to credit the incoming payments that are missing from before the block was fixed, however they also said there's a possibility the transfers might have to be reversed. However, I assumed that once a Faster Payments transaction was processed, the receiving bank can't bounce it, you'd have to send it back through a fresh transfer.
The problem is, if they re-transfer everyone's payments back to PayPal, their system (PayPal's) won't be able to identify what funds belongs to who, as it will be coming from Wirecard's bank account and not the ones linked to our account. If the actual transfer can still be bounced after completion, there's a chance that PayPal can re-credit our balance and allow us to withdraw it again now the problem is fixed.
Does anyone have any technical knowledge or experience on this? For the time being, I am missing £150 and want UAccount to credit me what I am owed... this is why I've been reluctant to use them as a full-time bank account, as they have ridiculous problems like these. Their customer support is unprofessional as well, using words like "lol" and "haha" when describing the situation and amount of customers who have complained about this.
Advice provided from this account does not consist of any professional knowledge. For professional debt advice, please contact either National Debtline or StepChange. Advice may consist of personal experience, opinion and/or informational sources.
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Comments
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I think you are correct that a transfer back will need to be initiated, while it may be technically feasible to reverse a Faster Payment my understanding of the procedures when I was working on the system pre-implementation is that there is no facility in place to actually do this. I'd say it's incumbent on UAccount to ensure that all returned payments are made with enough information to identify the original sender.
If things don't go as planned UAccount is regulated by the FCA so you should be able to complain to the FOS.0 -
I think you are correct that a transfer back will need to be initiated, while it may be technically feasible to reverse a Faster Payment my understanding of the procedures when I was working on the system pre-implementation is that there is no facility in place to actually do this. I'd say it's incumbent on UAccount to ensure that all returned payments are made with enough information to identify the original sender.
If things don't go as planned UAccount is regulated by the FCA so you should be able to complain to the FOS.
When PayPal receive payments to their sort code and account number, it is an automated system. The reference box is limited to few characters and putting the customer's name is not enough, as there could be more than one John Smith on the system. If the transfers were refused by Wirecard, PayPal would credit us back instantly and send a failed notification.
It does sound like quite a farce. It would be less work to credit our accounts, they already have a system in place to identify where incoming payments are intended to go and Wirecard never bounced the transfers, so the money is sitting with them.
I do not want to complain to the FOS etc. this could take months to recover. They need to sort themselves out and make sure this doesn't happen again. If they can't control their own supplier's system from blocking a massive organization like PayPal, they need to re-consider their business plan. Annoyed is an understatement right now. I have two subsequent payments coming in tonight to UAccount from PayPal, which I couldn't stop because they were already made days ago, if they do not credit as well, we're looking at over £400's worth missing.Advice provided from this account does not consist of any professional knowledge. For professional debt advice, please contact either National Debtline or StepChange. Advice may consist of personal experience, opinion and/or informational sources.0 -
Once a Faster Payments has been processed and is in the recipient's account, can the receiving bank essentially "reverse" it back to the sender?
I do not mean refund, as in create another transfer back to the sender's account, I mean literally bouncing it / reversing it back to the sender's account.
[...]
...Wirecard (who owns UAccount)...
According to a Natwest document there are reasons (codes) for why a Faster Payment is rejected or returned.
My guess is that the payment has been queued or rejected/returned. I'd wait a few days to see what happens.
If it's been rejected or returned it will have your account number and the the transaction ID attached to it, so PayPal can identify it.
I don't think Wirecard own U. Several pre-paid cards use Wirecard for their back end processing.0 -
According to a Natwest document there are reasons (codes) for why a Faster Payment is rejected or returned.
My guess is that the payment has been queued or rejected/returned. I'd wait a few days to see what happens.
If it's been rejected or returned it will have your account number and the the transaction ID attached to it, so PayPal can identify it.
I don't think Wirecard own U. Several pre-paid cards use Wirecard for their back end processing.
You are right on that one, Wirecard seems to be the backbone of this and similar services, rather than the owner. It can confuse people and companies though, as the sort code and account number that UAccount issue are registered to Wirecard rather than their trading name on the database.
UAccount have now fixed this problem and missing funds have been credited to our accounts. Let's hope there is no repeat of this in the future, it was quite an avoidable issue.Advice provided from this account does not consist of any professional knowledge. For professional debt advice, please contact either National Debtline or StepChange. Advice may consist of personal experience, opinion and/or informational sources.0 -
I don't think Wirecard own U. Several pre-paid cards use Wirecard for their back end processing.
Depends on how you read the evidence and what you attribute to the evidence. In the definitions section of the bank Of U T&Cs it is stated:
In that context U being a trading name of Ffrees is acting as an agent of Wirecard.We/us/our !!!8211; Wirecard Card Solutions Ltd. or U (a trading name of Ffrees Family Finance and acting on their behalf)
Further on in the T&Cs we see:
Therefore credits paid into a U account are held by Wirecard.1.4. The card and account are an e-money product, and as such it is not covered by the Financial Services Compensation Scheme. In the unlikely event that Wirecard Card Solutions Ltd. becomes insolvent, your funds may become valueless and unusable, and as a result you may lose your money.
So therefore overall Wirecard own the funds credited to U and the U card and probably also control the various functions of the U account such as standing orders. As previously stated U is basically an agent of Wirecard.0 -
Depends on how you read the evidence and what you attribute to the evidence. In the definitions section of the bank Of U T&Cs it is stated:
In that context U being a trading name of Ffrees is acting as an agent of Wirecard.
Further on in the T&Cs we see:
Therefore credits paid into a U account are held by Wirecard.
So therefore overall Wirecard own the funds credited to U and the U card and probably also control the various functions of the U account such as standing orders. As previously stated U is basically an agent of Wirecard.
I wouldn't trust them with my savings, that is for sure! I only use them as a hub for transporting funds from PayPal business profits into a bank account that is covered under the FCS.
In other words, the money held on a UAccount card is no more valuable than Doritos chips in real economic terms, therefore if Wirecard go KAPUT unexpectedly, so does our capital.Advice provided from this account does not consist of any professional knowledge. For professional debt advice, please contact either National Debtline or StepChange. Advice may consist of personal experience, opinion and/or informational sources.0 -
I don't think Wirecard own U. Several pre-paid cards use Wirecard for their back end processing.Depends on how you read the evidence and what you attribute to the evidence.
Monzo's prepaid offering also used Wirecard. Is Monzo own by Wirecard?
Revolut also used Wirecard, but they seem to have moved on to another solution now.
Curve also uses Wirecard.
I don't see any evidence that Wirecard owns U and Curve or owns/owned Monzo and Revolut.0 -
Monzo's prepaid offering also used Wirecard. Is Monzo own by Wirecard?
Revolut also used Wirecard, but they seem to have moved on to another solution now.
Curve also uses Wirecard.
I don't see any evidence that Wirecard owns U and Curve or owns/owned Monzo and Revolut.
My point was not that Wirecard owns U but that Wirecard owns the deposited funds, the card and the account processes. Therefore since U does not own those things U is basically an agent of Wirecard.
Wirecard itself is well placed to provide a fully fledged banking service because it already does that in Germany with the fully licensed Wirecard Bank.
https://www.wirecardbank.com0
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