Dropped Kerb

2

Comments

  • chappers
    chappers Posts: 2,988 Forumite
    edited 15 October 2017 at 10:21PM
    McKneff wrote: »
    A wooden wedge is a lot cheaper.....
    Yep but don't complain when someone parks across your "driveway".
    Some people on my mothers street had converted their front gardens to parking spaces, which meant that most of their cars were overhanging the pavement. None of them had applied for dropped kerbs. I used to take great pleasure at parking in front of them and blocking them in. Bit sad I know but it amused me.
  • If you're going to drop a kerb, the important thing is to make sure your feet are well out of the way.
  • ps124
    ps124 Posts: 171
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    Thanks for the all replies. I understood it exactly as EachPenny said:

    "If I understand your post correctly, what you think is the council should pay the cost of making the dropped kerb wider because it is less than the 'standard width'."

    As I said before, this is not something that I've ever had to do or come across anyone who has had to do this so I wasn't really sure what to expect.

    Anyway, turns out the cost of the whole operation is well, well over £1000. It'll probably be between £2-4k!

    Reason being that because there is a grass converge between the footpath and highway that will have to be removed as a result of my dropped kerb request (Probably 1m2 area of grass or as the council calls it, 'soft land'). As I need to remove this soft land, my own driveway has to have 50% of soft land to "compensate" - due to some new rules passed in 2008. It doesn't have this so the only way for me to drop this one bloody kerb, is to turn my driveway from 100% concrete to include 50% soft land, or relay the whole driveway with some sort of soft pebbling stuff which counts as soft land. All this for a single drop kerb!

    I dropped to floor when i heard this.
  • lush_walrus
    lush_walrus Posts: 1,975 Forumite
    What they are asking for is a permeable surface, ie a surface that will allow water to pass through it. At the moment you have a non permeable surface, ie a surface that water sits ontop of and will therefore add to the burden on the drainage system.

    In simple terms you are asking them to reduce the amount of permeable surface by removing some of their grass verge to replace with something non permeable, therefore increasing the burden on the drainage system and increasing the risk of fooding.

    The policy change has been widely publicised and has been in place for nearly ten years.

    You can opt for block paving so you can still park on it as long as the jointing allows for water penetration and resin for example again aslong as it is pereable therefore bound not bonded. Fact is what you have at present would not be permitted now, so once you ask for a change they will try to rectify this.
  • chappers
    chappers Posts: 2,988 Forumite
    You can opt for block paving so you can still park on it as long as the jointing allows for water penetration .

    That has now been tightened up too and the blocks themselves also need to be permeable.
  • EachPenny
    EachPenny Posts: 12,239
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    ...In simple terms you are asking them to reduce the amount of permeable surface by removing some of their grass verge to replace with something non permeable, therefore increasing the burden on the drainage system and increasing the risk of fooding.

    The policy change has been widely publicised and has been in place for nearly ten years.

    ...Fact is what you have at present would not be permitted now, so once you ask for a change they will try to rectify this.

    There are two separate issues here and the Council officer (perhaps following policy, perhaps not) is getting them confused.

    If the OP was planning on constructing a new driveway then the new rules on impermeable surfaces would apply. But since the driveway is existing there will be no additional burden on the drainage system. There is no change of use nor 'construction activity' within the OP's curtilage (as far as I understand) therefore planning law or building regulations etc do not come into play.

    It is arguable that an additional m2 or so of paved surface replacing grass verge within the highway boundary is adding to the discharge to the drainage system, but the impact is negligible. Since the works are within the highway and consist only of modifications to the surface, planning consent is not required and the impermeable area rules do not apply.

    This doesn't stop the Council making its own rules, but if challenged in Court it is unlikely the council could defend a policy of requiring the OP to remove 50% of his impermeable driveway to compensate for an additional 1m2 of impermeable highway. I'm not suggesting the OP goes to court, but just pointing out that the decisions the Council makes must be reasonable, which then guides his next course of action....
    ps124 wrote: »
    Reason being that because there is a grass converge between the footpath and highway that will have to be removed as a result of my dropped kerb request (Probably 1m2 area of grass or as the council calls it, 'soft land'). As I need to remove this soft land, my own driveway has to have 50% of soft land to "compensate" - due to some new rules passed in 2008. It doesn't have this so the only way for me to drop this one bloody kerb, is to turn my driveway from 100% concrete to include 50% soft land, or relay the whole driveway with some sort of soft pebbling stuff which counts as soft land. All this for a single drop kerb!

    ...so the Council are taking a mix-and-match approach to their policy making. This might be due to a confused Council officer who doesn't understand the rules and is rigidly applying the 'normal' approach to your unusual circumstances, or it might be deliberate Council policy. You need to establish which it is.

    The first thing I would ask them for is a copy of their policy on the provision of dropped kerbs and check this to see if it states that the impermeable surfacing rules will be applied retrospectively in the event of any requested changes to the highway part of the driveway. It is unlikely this will be formal policy, but you need to know before proceeding.

    The second thing is whether it is possible for you to replace part of your driveway with impermeable area, but only the area exactly equivalent to the area of grass verge the council would need to pave over (i.e. 1m2). 1m2 in a double driveway equates to a very small strip along one edge and could be easily done by a competent DIYer. This change would be minor and unlikely to need planning consent, but that is something to consider at a later point in the process and don't offer to do this unless you absolutely have to.

    The next thing to do is to contact your local councillor (if more than one you need to do a bit of research to find out the best one) and ask them to visit you to discuss the problem.

    Hopefully common sense would prevail and the councillor will be able to persuade the officers that their demand is disproportionate to the amount of verge lost. You may be able to get them to accept that the loss of verge is trivial and can be ignored. But (later on) you might need to offer an exact equivalent of 'new' permeable area in your driveway to compensate for the amount lost on the verge. (like for like) - subject to clarification that you wouldn't need planning consent to do so.

    If following your meeting with the councillor they refuse and stick to the 50% rule then they have made a 'decision' which (only theoretically) could be subject to judicial review on grounds of reasonableness.

    But nobody in their right mind would go for a judicial review over such a minor issue ;) Your best course of action (after exhausting the Council's own complaints process, during which you offer the like-for-like swap) is to then make a complaint to the Local Government Ombudsman. They look at complaints about maladministration, which I think would cover your circumstances. Either the council is randomly or inappropriately applying a policy, or it has no relevant policy, or it has a policy which is unreasonable in the circumstances. (it isn't clear, which is why you need to work that bit out first).

    Bear in mind every day the council will be carrying out minor works on the highway removing small bits of verge to widen footways, build pedestrian crossings, build cycleways etc, it is very unlikely that they apply the retrospective 50% rule to their own works (how could they!) so in comparison what you are asking for should not even be a consideration.

    But you will need to pay for the work in the highway if they eventually agree to do it - that you cannot avoid.
    "In the future, everyone will be rich for 15 minutes"
  • ps124
    ps124 Posts: 171
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    Super advice. Thanks EachPenny. Need to have a think about this and what I want to do. Seems like a lot of hassle for a single drop kerb. Thanks for your advice though, much appreciated.
  • Hi can anyone tell me how I can ask for some advice on having a dropped kerb denied by my local council.
    I have a end terrace property, which I have created off road parking at the front of the house, all of the other terrace houses have had their kerbs dropped. I have the widest and longest out of the lot and the council have just denied me the right to lower it. Thank you
  • p00hsticks
    p00hsticks Posts: 12,671
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    D6TMC wrote: »
    Hi can anyone tell me how I can ask for some advice on having a dropped kerb denied by my local council.
    I have a end terrace property, which I have created off road parking at the front of the house, all of the other terrace houses have had their kerbs dropped. I have the widest and longest out of the lot and the council have just denied me the right to lower it. Thank you

    Did they give any reason ? (e.g as you are an end terrace, are you in close proximity to a road junction ?)
  • We need more information. As p00hsticks says, why have the council refused? How long ago were your neighbours given permission? Are you near or opposite a junction/crossing point, etc?

    I'm guessing but I suspect your neighbours' drives were permitted under historical council policies which have been tightened and which ask for a greater minimum distance between footpath and house than you have? In which case, that's tough. They won't start allowing exceptions just because of what's gone before.
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