Retirement Flat - Energy advice
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HiStill laughable and even more so this time.
It's not about statistics and figures. It's about the special needs of older people as I've said previously.
Older people as they get older sometimes lose the feeling in their extremities namely fingers and toes, and that can extend further perhaps to their feet and hands or even further to their forearms and lower leg. Now what does that tell you about just one the special needs of older people and their ability to test the temperature of water? It's one thing to burn one's hands in a kitchen sink but quite another to burn one's whole body in a shower. In the latter case the older person is likely to suffer shock and die!
Getting to the real world, that of my hot water system and my electric shower, it's very easy for me to adjust the temperature of my Vaillant combi boiler. But the temperature of my shower is limited and in order to change that I have to open it up. Basically the temperature of my shower doesn't increase beyond the temperature of the No. 6 setting.
Now I would say stop with your unqualified and uninformed advice before you kill someone!
Lastly, anyone who buys a retirement flat is looking towards it being their home for the rest of their life. So the fixtures and fittings have to be mindful of the fact that they could suffer with their health and mobility as they get older unless they are able to replace those fixtures and fittings at regular intervals.
I take it that you are aware that thermostatic shower valves are available? ... Further to that you're also aware that shower valves are available with preset mix water temperatures ... ours was setto 42°C as delivered and to change the fixed temperature (or allow a range to be manually adjusted), the front of the valve needs to be disassembled, mechanical adjustments made and then locked in to avoid accidental adjustment, then the valve reassembled ....
This is the real world, those thermostatic showers exist - we have two!! ... above that, as already mentioned, we have the ability to prevent hot water scalding at all sinks through mixing stored DHW with cold to a preset maximum temperature as it leaves our cylinder ....
As mentioned earlier, you have said that you have taken the decision on advice of an energy assessor and a water company, both presumably from an efficiency basis. Your defensive position now is related to health & safety issues for the elderly at large ... so let's have a look at that ...
1. HSE - Information Sheet 6 .. <link>
Okay, HSE reference beama, so what do they say ...TMVs should be located as close as possible to the outlet, where they are necessary. In healthcare settings, Type 3 is the standard required by the Department of Health!!!8217;s Health Technical Memorandum 04-01 The control of legionella, hygiene, !!!8216;safe!!!8217; hot water, cold water and drinking water systems Type 3 TMVs should be installed when TMVs are replaced or where there are new installations. Further information on TMVs can be obtained from the Thermostatic Mixing Valve Association (TMVA) or at www.beama.org.uk
TMVs should ensure only safe water temperatures are available. Healthcare standard controls (eg Type 3 TMV or healthcare standard electric showers) and regular safety testing should ensure that the equipment remains safe at all times
2. beama -Recommended Code of Practice for Safe Water Temperatures .. <link>
So, TMV2 valves are self assessed & TMV3 valve approvals are listed by WRAS ... <link>- NHS Estates Model Engineering Specification D08. This is for single outlet applications and is accepted as best possible practice for thermostatic mixing valve performance. There is a third party approval scheme to this standard and such valves are designated TMV3. These are Type 3 valves as defined in the NHS Estates Guidance document. The Water Regulations Advisory Scheme (formerly Water Byelaws Scheme) lists all approved TMV3 valves in the Water Fittings and Materials Directory.
- BS 1415 Pt 2 1986 (Replaced by BS EN 1111 and BS EN 1287). This is for single outlet applications. Such valves are designated as Type 2 valves in the NHS Estates Guidance document and are deemed suitable for low risk applications. Manufacturers self certify valves as complying with this standard.
And on of the manufacturers of TMVs at random (Pegler) ... <link>
Note the product selection criteria on page 12 and the various TMV options (showers, taps, TMVs etc)
So that just about leaves sources .... so, examples at random ...
Examples from one that's on TV a lot!
And one that's probably nearby!
Even a well known brand selling both electric care showers & TMV3!
As can be seen, there's plenty of evidence that recommendations made on health & safety or care standard grounds could be made for both electric showers or thermostatic mixer showers, the HSE confirm it, the NHS confirm it, beama confirm it, manufacturers confirm it, and retail confirm it too .... so the choice is absolutely nothing to do with product availability, product standards or safety.
Considering the above, we're back to the original position, one of relative cost ... sorry to say this but it is 'about statistics and figures' ... moving your shower water heating from gas to electricity in order to save around 30p on water consumption is costing you around £4.59 more when the relative cost of energy is considered ... it doesn't matter how many times you shower or how long each one takes, it's the simple ratio that counts.
The EST published a report a while back covering water usage and efficiency <link> which covers standard & low flow shower heads etc which assesses the average (non-pumped) shower user consumes around 60litres of water each time.
HTH
Z"We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
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HiWho charges 17p per unit for electricity? - I would have thought between 9p and 11p per unit would be more normal, depending on the zone you are in (midlands cheapest, highlands most expensive)
We're also low users & pay around 17p/unit for electricity on a zero standing charge tariff ....
Latest Ofgem information suggests far more than 9-11p ... <link> ... but that doesn't really matter as the differential is so huge ... anyone can substitute whatever figures they pay into the calculation made and it wouldn't make electricity cheaper ... even go as far as time the use of the shower, measure pipe length & flow rate wouldn't reverse the basic premise of the conclusion .... in this case either the wrong question was asked, or the wrong answer was given!
HTH
Z"We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle0 -
Hi
I take it that you are aware that thermostatic shower valves are available? ... Further to that you're also aware that shower valves are available with preset mix water temperatures ... ours was setto 42°C as delivered and to change the fixed temperature (or allow a range to be manually adjusted), the front of the valve needs to be disassembled, mechanical adjustments made and then locked in to avoid accidental adjustment, then the valve reassembled ....
This is the real world, those thermostatic showers exist - we have two!! ... above that, as already mentioned, we have the ability to prevent hot water scalding at all sinks through mixing stored DHW with cold to a preset maximum temperature as it leaves our cylinder ....
As mentioned earlier, you have said that you have taken the decision on advice of an energy assessor and a water company, both presumably from an efficiency basis. Your defensive position now is related to health & safety issues for the elderly at large ... so let's have a look at that ...
1. HSE - Information Sheet 6 .. <link>
Okay, HSE reference beama, so what do they say ...
2. beama -Recommended Code of Practice for Safe Water Temperatures .. <link>
So, TMV2 valves are self assessed & TMV3 valve approvals are listed by WRAS ... <link>
And on of the manufacturers of TMVs at random (Pegler) ... <link>
Note the product selection criteria on page 12 and the various TMV options (showers, taps, TMVs etc)
So that just about leaves sources .... so, examples at random ...
Examples from one that's on TV a lot!
And one that's probably nearby!
Even a well known brand selling both electric care showers & TMV3!
As can be seen, there's plenty of evidence that recommendations made on health & safety or care standard grounds could be made for both electric showers or thermostatic mixer showers, the HSE confirm it, the NHS confirm it, beama confirm it, manufacturers confirm it, and retail confirm it too .... so the choice is absolutely nothing to do with product availability, product standards or safety.
Considering the above, we're back to the original position, one of relative cost ... sorry to say this but it is 'about statistics and figures' ... moving your shower water heating from gas to electricity in order to save around 30p on water consumption is costing you around £4.59 more when the relative cost of energy is considered ... it doesn't matter how many times you shower or how long each one takes, it's the simple ratio that counts.
The EST published a report a while back covering water usage and efficiency <link> which covers standard & low flow shower heads etc which assesses the average (non-pumped) shower user consumes around 60litres of water each time.
HTH
Z
Actually you didn't mention the special needs of older people until I mentioned it. But what I said flew over your head. The safety aspect for older people is that the thermostat cannot be changed by the user and it has to be foolproof.
This is in fact what the Health and Safety Executive says about the need for safety assessments:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/hsis6.pdfA risk assessment of the premises should be carried out to identify what controls are necessary and how the systems will be managed and maintained.
Yet you and other poster challenged the assessments I had done by qualified professionals stating that their motives in their recommendations were suspect. Incredible!
I think, really in all truthfulness you don't have a clue about the special needs of older people. Really, before you set yourself up as an expert you need to learn about the subject and get qualified.
There are many other requirements of the safety of older people but I'm not going to post them for you to unreasonably refute them. I think I've proved my point anyway and in any case if you are qualified you would already know them.
I also think it odd that you should gamble with the health and welfare of older people in order to score points!
To everyone: Don't trust a self-appointed forum expert. Get advice from qualified professionals!
My last in this thread.0 -
This is a topic related to retirement so I am replying on that basis, i.e. related to older people.
Depends if you need Warm Home Discount or not: If not try an online quote at Outfox The Market. If you need WHD try an online quote with Scottish Power.
My current Scottish Power Super Saver December 2018 Eastern region tariff for electricity is 13.054p/kWh and a standing change of 19.18p/day. That tariff is not available now but their currently available tariffs are comparable in overall cost. According to MSE Cheap Energy Club Outfox The Market would be £89/year cheaper than SP and I will probably switch to that in late November 2018 unless the situation changes.
So overall the above suggestions are well within your parameters depending on your region. There are other suppliers too of course.
I didn't realise what an expensive area I lived in for electricity.
I have looked at Scottish Power, and the cheapest tariff they do (1 year fixed) is 17.158/kWh with the standing charge you mention above of 19.18/day.0 -
I didn't realise what an expensive area I lived in for electricity.
I have looked at Scottish Power, and the cheapest tariff they do (1 year fixed) is 17.158/kWh with the standing charge you mention above of 19.18/day.
The next cheaper SP tariff in Eastern for me is Online fixed price energy April 2019 16.732p/kWh and 8.222p/day £30 exit fee and costs £22 p.a. more than I'm paying now. Stats from MSE CEC.
If SP prices keep increasing I'll be going Outfox in late November. Long time to go yet though.0 -
Look, my response was very simple, I challenged your initial post based on a few of your points.
In your first post (post 9) you made the following statements.
1) That the new shower head increased pressure without increasing the supply of water.
This is incorrect, all the shower head did was restrict the flow, saving water, but giving the impression it increased pressure (similar to putting your thumb on the end of a hose or a fine rose on a watering can) .
You can get a similar type of shower head for any shower. Pumped power shower, combi, system boiler etc and it would do the same thing. It is not something exclusive to electric showers.
--
I also asked why you had a combi and an electric shower. If you have a combi it would be cheaper to run the shower from this in the long term. It was just a query. If you are happy with it, that is great.
I did highlight the cost of ripping out the electric shower at this point might negate any short/medium term savings, so was probably not worth it.
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2) It was then in post 15 you mentioned the safety aspects of the electric shower.
Again, with a thermostatic valve, it makes a shower run off a combi just as safe.
I have personal experience in this regard. My elderly disabled father has a wet room with a shower fed off a combi. The thermostatic valve ensures the water can never get too hot. There is actually a good range of thermostatic valves/taps designed for the elderly and disabled.
3) You mentioned that an electric shower uses less water than a combi. But this is only because an electric shower is more restricted by how fast it can heat the water. This is because they are far less powerful than combi boilers. This is why electric showers usually have a lot less flow during winter. The cold water is so much colder, an electric shower will take longer to heat it, therefore the flow is affected.
A combi may supply a higher flow than an electric shower, but over the course of the length of a shower, the difference in water use will be minimal, especially with water saving devices added (such as the shower head). So a combi can be just as water efficient.
The cost difference in the price of energy would mean that a modern combi supplying the shower should cost less to run in the long term.
So, while I can see your point of view. I felt that the information you gave about the shower head and the safety of a combi was incorrect enough (or not detailed enough) to challenge or give an alternative option. This based on my knowledge and direct experience.
If you actually look at my responses to the OP, I actually informed him/her that it would probably be more cost effective for them to keep the electric shower for their specific circumstance.
I think my posts have been very reasonable responses.0 -
HiActually you didn't mention the special needs of older people until I mentioned it. But what I said flew over your head. The safety aspect for older people is that the thermostat cannot be changed by the user and it has to be foolproof.
This is in fact what the Health and Safety Executive says about the need for safety assessments:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/hsis6.pdf
Yet you and other poster challenged the assessments I had done by qualified professionals stating that their motives in their recommendations were suspect. Incredible!
I think, really in all truthfulness you don't have a clue about the special needs of older people. Really, before you set yourself up as an expert you need to learn about the subject and get qualified.
There are many other requirements of the safety of older people but I'm not going to post them for you to unreasonably refute them. I think I've proved my point anyway and in any case if you are qualified you would already know them.
I also think it odd that you should gamble with the health and welfare of older people in order to score points!
To everyone: Don't trust a self-appointed forum expert. Get advice from qualified professionals!
My last in this thread.
But the issue is that you posted this ........
For me the home energy survey was useful because I had expert advice on what to install with qualified contractors to do the work and the free water survey by my local water company was even better. The water survey also recommended an electric shower and sort of underlined the findings of the home energy survey,
I especially recommend the free water survey if your local water company provides one. They came back to my home after the electric shower was fitted and for free fitted a new shower head which increased the pressure without increasing the supply of water to the shower and also fitted for free a bucket thingy (no brand name on it) in the cistern which cut down on the amount of water in the cistern. They say they will also do an annual water survey also for free.
...
... which makes no financial sense at all as heating the water with electricity is far more expensive than gas and that flow restriction shower heads can be installed on standard showers too ....
Later, you confirmed that you had the ...
... which is fine from a water saving position, but that's the point, the water company did not take the cost of energy into account when they "recommended an electric shower", just the reduction in water usage....
Water survey to check that I was economical as possible in using water and paying for it ....
My original comment on this simply pointed out that ...
... simply because it didn't make sense on financial grounds ..... I don't really follow that post re the water advice ...
The move to argue on welfare or safety grounds was raised here ...You are not considering that the electric shower is using less water and therefore less energy to heat it than getting hot water from the combi boiler. Also you are not considering the safety of constant temperature water from the electric shower in preference to possibly fluctuating temperature water from the combi boiler. Remember this is a retirement flat intended to be occupied by older people and that's a major consideration.
Alternatively we could trust your opinion as someone who has not surveyed the property while distrusting experienced and professional tradesmen who have surveyed the property. I prefer to trust the professionals. Oh yes I still recommend the water survey because that reduced the cost of water.
Note that the opening paragraph "You are not considering that the electric shower is using less water and therefore less energy to heat it than getting hot water from the combi boiler" ... is incorrect in that it had been considered in the post you were replying to as ".. if you could use 10% less water with the electric shower .." and that the appropriate reduction in energy consumption had been accounted for. However, at this point you fail to recognise that the issue isn't water consumption, it's displacing one form of energy provision (gas) with a considerably more expensive one (electricity).
This was the first mention of safety, however this has been queried by myself & others ... after further argument I've even provided details, including the link to 'HSE - Information Sheet 6' which is the very guidance document you've just referenced and linked to as
as 'hsis6.pdf' ... I take it that you did read the sections regarding 'Healthcare standard controls (eg Type 3 TMV or healthcare standard electric showers)' as they were highlighted ... as well as all of the other information which supports the position that installing an electric shower was unnecessary as standard showers with tight temperature tolerances are available.
As for the continued abusive remarks, are they really necessary? Many of us have had experience with elderly relatives or are of advanced years ourselves, yet relatively few resort to employing abuse when their advice is challenged by logic ... please review the thread carefully and reconsider the positions you have maintained, you may be surprised to find that specialist alternatives to specialist electric showers exist and that the cost savings on water purchases may even be considerably less than the additional cost of displacing gas with electricity ...
HTH
Z"We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle0 -
Hi Pensioner1Pensioner1 wrote: »We have just purchased a small ( 47 sq mtr) one bedroom 2nd floor , centrally situated retirement flat in town centre. Purpose built block in 1998 - original heating/water system. No gas.
The flat has two old and ugly yellowing ! original storage heaters , one in bedroom and one in lounge - Creda Slimline combi. The heating I think has been Economy 7 tariff. There is a large super seven hot water / immersion tank in hall cupboard.
The flat needs total refurb. and we really would like any advice please regarding the best heating /hot water system to use regarding economy, efficiency and aesthetics if possible.
The bathroom has a shower over the bath ; a number of the other flats have replaced bath with electric shower.
I assume with the present heating system that the night storage heaters heat the hot water in the tank? We have always had gas ; all electric is completely new to us.
Possibly usually for a retirement flat, the flat will be unoccupied and empty for frequent weeks of the year . Possibly up to 4 months out of 12 but split over the year. It will be checked whilst we are away.
The hot water tank in a very useful storage cupboard takes up a lot of room and we would like to get rid of the if its a sensible options.
The storage heaters are 20 years old - should we replace ? - Dimplex Quantum ??
Thoughts are to replace the bath and over shower with electric shower - if there is sufficient water pressure ?
Thoughts are to install Quooker Combi or Grohe Red Instant boiling water tap in kitchen to facilitate all needs - yes very expensive item but again might help get rid of huge hot water tank ?
This would only leave sink in bathroom with no hot water which we could live with.
We are only in our early 60s and fit and very active; want to try and avoid an overheated environment. The block is very warm anyway.
Grateful for any advice please. Thank you
Just an idea ..... Have a look at this thread over on the G&E board ... <http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4715287> it may be of interest as an additional heat source in an all electric flat ....
HTH
Z"We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle0 -
First of all thank you everyone for your responses, very much appreciated. I will try and clarify a little our situation which may possibly explain my possible preferred choices regarding hot water supply to this flat.
I will be consulting a qualified professional/s but like to improve my own knowledge first and I have found these forums very helpful in the past.
Yes its a second floor retirement flat ; however thank goodness we are both extremely fit and active ( marathon runners) and will be away from the flat weeks at a time. That said I do want to try and future proof the flat but we are used to living in very modern/contemporary - little use of heating ( windows open) and not much need for hot water in the kitchen. Very minimalist in design.
Gas is not an option - so no boilers / combis etc .
Not eligible for any grants etc; we dont pay for water as included in service charge.
We dont want the current bath; need shower with instant hot water that will be available 24/7 - hence choice of electric.
Huge vented super 7 immersion tank 20 years old takes a lot of space - really want to get rid of this ??
Flat is in SW London
Standard rate with SSE is 14.8p standing charge and 16.56p per unit.
Economy 7 - 1 year is 8.60 night; 18.75 day and 16.45 standing charge
The problem is I cant ever see us using the economy 7. There are only 2 storage heaters in the flat. I in the bedroom that I think we may want to take out as we are used to sleeping in unheated bedroom with window open. The other storage heater is in the lounge.
Hence my thoughts of undersink water heaters ( or through flow / Zip ?) to provide hot water to kitchen and possibly basin in bathroom.
Any more advice on the above would be great thanks .0 -
Pensioner1 wrote: »That said I do want to try and future proof the flat but we are used to living in very modern/contemporary - little use of heating ( windows open) and not much need for hot water in the kitchen. Very minimalist in design.
The problem is I cant ever see us using the economy 7. There are only 2 storage heaters in the flat. I in the bedroom that I think we may want to take out as we are used to sleeping in unheated bedroom with window open. The other storage heater is in the lounge.
The two things I have highlighted above sort of contradict each other.
You may be fit marathon runners at the moment, but as it's a 'retirement flat' I will have to assume that you will be getting older and with this you may become less mobile and more susceptible to the cold weather.
If that's the case, then in the future ... you may need some heating.
During prolonged cold spells (such as recently) what's going to stop your water pipes freezing up?
I suppose, simply, you could take the storage heaters away and then when you feel the need, you could buy some new ones perhaps?
Certainly, ditch the massive immersion/hot water tank, but think to the future!
There was an old guy who worked for my dad. One very cold winter someone asked him if he was concerned about his energy bills? His reply was simple ...
"8ugger being cold" :rotfl:0
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