Parking Fine Battle- Advice needed!

Peevedpeugeot · 15 October 2018 at 10:45PM

Hi Everyone,

New to this but wanted some advice. I’m currently in a dispute with a parking company, won’t say which at this time. Received a PCN earlier in the year which I appealed on the basis of poor signage and unclear bay markings. Got an auto email back from the company saying thanks for the appeal and we will get back to you.

Didn’t hear back for around 3 months, assume I won the appeal because of 35 day response time but then suddenly get a letter back from debt company advising I owe £150 for not paying.

Call parking company and get told my appeal came through blank with none of my text in it. I say why didn’t they contact me and the advise that because the appeal was blank it was automatically rejected and when I didn’t pay was passed to debt company. I say that’s all very well and good but I never received an email informing me of my rejection. My argument is that whether the appeal was blank or not (which wasn’t my fault anyway if their technology is rubbish) I should have got a rejection, a POPLA number and the ability to pay the reduced rate.

This goes back and forth with them refusing the budge. Eventually they ask me to send my appeal to them again (I had taken a copy) and they would look into it. All this time I am being chased by debt company. Complained to AOS who did nothing despite me pointing out company was breaching their regulations.

Eventually company sends back standard appeal rejection stating my appeal (dated the day I resubmitted not my original appea date - clever) was rejected. Gave me POPLA number so I have appealed to them, awaiting decision currently. Still getting chased by ever threatening debt company as despite parking company telling me they would pull that action pending appeal they haven’t.

My questions are

1) Even if POPLA decide against me should I refuse to pay on the grounds that my original appeal wasn’t replied to in 35 days and hope they don’t take me to court.

2) Is there anything I can do more than what I have done barring my own legal action (can’t afford it)? I’m still speaking to AOS although nothing is really happening, Keep telling debt company what is happening to the response of “unless parking company tell us to stop we won’t”. Not speaking to parking company any more because frankly it was a waste of time and air.

Basically just waiting for POPLA result despite the fact I don’t think I should have to be. Causing me a lot of stress at the moment.

Any advice appreciated.

Ralph-y · 15 October 2018 at 10:57PM

hi and welcome ... sadly it sounds like you should have started this thread a while a go .....

going by what you have said I would expect a POPLA refusal :-(

you can not use mitigation in a POPLA appeal ... only legal argument

with out knowing the PPC name we can not tell you how likely they are to proceed to court ...

and

to ignore debt crawlers

one thing the newbies thread would have told you is that the vast ... and I mean vast ... number of first appeals fail ... they are not interested they only want your £££

there is no regulation ... no fairness ... niceties...

read and watch the below to get a further idea

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-02-02/debates/CC84AF5E-AC6E-4E14-81B1-066E6A892807/Parking(CodeOfPractice)Bill

and slightly longer, the committee stage

https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/d5550515-cce9-4185-83ec-754dadb7524a

''Rip-offs from car park Cowboys must stop''; unfair treatment; signage deliberately confusing to ensure a PCN is issued; ''years of abuse by rogue parking companies''; bloodsuckers; ''the current system of regulation is hopeless, like putting Dracula in charge of the blood-bank''; extortionate fines; rogue operators; ''sense of injustice''; unfair charges and notices; wilfully misleading; signage is a deliberate act to deceive or mislead; ''confusing signs are often deliberate, to trap innocent drivers''; unreasonable; a curse; harassing; operating in a disgusting way; appeals service is no guarantee of a fair hearing; loathed; outrageous scam; dodgy practice; outrageous abuse; unscrupulous practices; ''the British Parking Association is as much use as a multi-storey car park in the Gobi desert''; and finally, by way of unanimous conclusion: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists and ordinary residents should not have to put up with this''.

These are the exact words used, so you should quote them to your MP in a complaint and ask him/her to contact Sir Greg Knight MP if he wants further information about this scam.

and some quotes from the committe stage

"The other area is hospital parking, and I want to single out one company for some pretty shady practices. That is ParkingEye"
" is very clear to me that there is collusion between parking companies and solicitors’ firms—so-called roboclaims companies. "
"They are often set up adjacently and involve the same directors and personnel. Incidentally, the same personnel get involved in the so-called appeals bodies."
"Essentially, it is a money-making enterprise that takes advantage of motorists up and down the country. They operate in a very business-like fashion, which is why I call them roboclaims companies."
"The companies are jamming up parts of our legal system."
“I now pretty much know exactly how the parking companies and in particular the IPC have been running this scam for the past 5 years. Basically both of the appeals processes are a complete and utter sham, (and part of that sham is Gladstones Solicitors itself)”
"The appeals process at Excel/VCS is run by a team of minimum wage office workers with no legal knowledge or experience whatsoever,"
" It is claimed by the head of the appeals service (retired Judge Bryn Holloway) that this is a completely independent fair process, it is not”
"The letter mentions two individuals—Will Hurley and Bryn Holloway—and concludes this is a typical example of the clear collusion between the IPC, their members and the IAS"
"what we can do about roboclaims companies and solicitors firms that profit, often in shady ways"
" the very large amounts of money that can be involved in such scams—a company called Smart Parking was involved in one such scam on my patch"
"tightening up the rules regarding the unfair use of automatic number plate recognition" "BW Legal, regularly issues 10,000 county court judgments a month, and is known to have issued 28,000 in one month"
"They are jamming up our court system, and are often totally unjustified."
" because the lifeblood of trying to extort money from people is having access to their details."

All from Parking (Code of Practice) Bill (First sitting) Hansard

You should now start to prepair a court defence after reading the court sections in the newbies thread ..... with the forums help a large number of people defend and win ...

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?

good luck

Ralph:cool:

Peevedpeugeot · 15 October 2018 at 11:08PM

Thanks for the response. To be honest I expect the appeal to be rejected although the appeal I think is valid on the basis of unclear signage. I did use some of these forums to make the argument and took loads of photos but it was always a long shot.

But you think I don’t have a chance with the whole 35 day response (or lack of?). Even if my appeal was blank because of a technological error on their part surely they should have sent me some response and by not doing so the PCN is void? (I put that element in my POPLA appeal as well)

My suspicion is POPLA will reject and I will have to pay up the £80. Can’t be dealing with the cost and hassle of going to court over it.

One other question, with POPLA if I appeal and that parking company doesn’t submit evidence within 21 days is that an automatic win or does my evidence still need to be valid?

Ralph-y · 15 October 2018 at 11:29PM

"My suspicion is POPLA will reject and I will have to pay up the £80. Can’t be dealing with the cost and hassle of going to court over it. "

that is of course your choice .... if you want to be scammed then OK...

you can find out the likelihood of court action via the newbies thread if you still wish to hide the PPC name ...

"One other question, with POPLA if I appeal and that parking company doesn’t submit evidence within 21 days is that an automatic win or does my evidence still need to be valid?"

yes ... ish ... if they do not submit evidence then you win...

this applies right up to .... (if court action IS stated) ... the court doors.

Ralph:cool:

Peevedpeugeot · 15 October 2018 at 11:39PM

Im starting to realise how ridiculous this system is. Probably should have looked into these forums and got advice before submitting the initial appeal. I will wait and see the outcome from POPLA and in the meantime will look through court defences etc.

PPC is APCOA.

KeithP · 15 October 2018 at 11:49PM

See this for your chances of court action:

www.parkingappeals.info/companydata/APCOA_Parking_UK.html

The suggestion must be - do not pay even if you lose at PoPLA.

Although having said that, they do have six years to consider court action and no-one can predict what they might be doing in 2024.

Peevedpeugeot · 15 October 2018 at 11:54PM

Ok so basically hold out if POPLA goes against me and hope I’m not the 1 in 80000 they bother to go to court for? Sounds good!

KeithP · 15 October 2018 at 11:58PM

1 in over 200,000 - but yes, I agree.

Peevedpeugeot · 17 October 2018 at 1:30PM

Further update to this one. I have while all this has been going on been trying to raise a complaint with the BPA regarding the conduct of the parking company.

I have said that by failing to reply to my admittedly blank appeal (their technics error) within 35 days despite acknowledging it via email and then escalating to a Debt company without rejecting it and giving me a chance to pay the have breached the BPA code of conduct.

Also I have an appea with POPLA and yet am still being chased by the debt company - another breach. The BPA are as expected being useless - is there anyone else I can issue a complaint to regarding the conduct of APCOA as it is clear the BPA are not going to police their own.

Umkomaas · 17 October 2018 at 2:39PM

is there anyone else I can issue a complaint to regarding the conduct of APCOA as it is clear the BPA are not going to police their own.

Did you email Steve Clark at the BPA, or just the generic aos@..... if not, email your complaint to SC at:

steve.c@britishparking.co.uk

Further, have you complained to your MP? If not, get him/her involved.

Peevedpeugeot · 20 October 2018 at 1:48PM

Ok so update on the situation. APCOA hAve submitted evidence to POPLA and it’s the standard stuff. Photos of all the signs on sight. Pictures of my car etc. However there are a couple of points I think I can comment on based on my appeal points which I wanted advice on a) are they worth making and b) how to phrase it. That I was hoping for advice for.

The points are:

Because of their technical issue I resent my appeal to them on 17th September. In their appeal rejection they mention my appeal of 27th September. Can I argue at all that they are not responding to my appeal and therefore their rejection is invalidated? If so, how.

2) All their photos of the signs in the car park are dated from 2016. Can I argue that this doesn’t present an accurate picture of the current situation?

3) I stated in my argument they have been unable to prove loss of income. They say I wasn’t in a marked bay but my car didn’t block anyone from entering another space and I am a season ticket holder. They haven’t commented on this in their response, is it a valid argument and should I reiterate it?

4) One of my arguments was that the entire area in which I parked is unmarked as it is a gravel surface and therefore it is impossible to know which areas are legal “bays” and which aren’t. They haven’t responded to this point. Is it valid and worth reiterating?

5) I also appealed on insufficient signage. There are loads of signs in the car park with terms including a number of signs saying no parking in all other areas where you cannot park except the area where I did. My argument was that because there was an absence of no parking signs where all other areas have them it was impossible to know the area shouldn’t be parked in. But with this why I really want to know is what are the rules on signage? I read somewhere you have to be able see the sign from where your car is parked? If so the only sign where I parked was up a bank that was a health and safety hazard to climb and couldn’t be read from the car. Is this valid?

Any help appreciated. I feel like I may be close to winning the appeal if I get this right.

Parking Fine Battle- Advice needed!

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