Should I pay for wrong diagnosis?

2

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  • Nodding_Donkey
    Nodding_Donkey Posts: 2,738 Forumite
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    So they changed the pump and it stopped leaking. For three weeks. Then it started leaking from the pipe.

    Looks to me like he fixed the problem then another problem occured.

    Now you are going to chargeback the original bill?

    TF I don't work on ordinary cars. This is just the sort of customer that would drive me batty.

    Luckily it's a very small world for the cars I work on and believe me, there is a !!!! list of owners that none of the specialists will work for.
  • AdrianC
    AdrianC Posts: 42,189 Forumite
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    There's a leak, somewhere in a dark and oily corner of the engine bay.
    You can't quite see where the leak's coming from.

    Do you strip everything out so you can clean it all up, then spend chargeable time running it until the source becomes obvious?

    Or do you simply go for the most likely cause?

    Let's look at the timeline.
    Leak noticed.
    Top up level.
    3 days later. Leak recurs.
    Replace pump.
    3 weeks later. Leak recurs.
    Replace pipe.
    Leak does not recur.

    Obviously, simply topping the level up is not going to stop the leak.
    Replacing the pump did, though, for a much longer period than it previously took for the leak to become obvious. Great.
    But then the leak came back - from elsewhere. Perhaps the increased pressure/flow from the new pump was too much for an already tired pipe, which wasn't previously leaking? Should they routinely replace every possible component, whether there's a sign of a problem with it or not?

    The "noise" was almost certainly the pump cavitating - pumping bubbles instead of fluid, because there's insufficient fluid left. The fluid constantly circulates in a closed circuit - it goes from the tank to the pump to the rack back to the tank. When steering is required, the pressurised fluid is directed to where it's needed to help move the rack, rather than simply straight back to the tank. If it's taking days for a leak to be noticed, then perhaps daily checking of the fluid level would give advance warning?
  • interstellaflyer
    interstellaflyer Posts: 2,053 Forumite
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    The only issue I see here is that if the hose fail is common as suggested, why did the mechanic not recommend replacing the hose at the same time as he replaced the pump as a precaution, the extra labour would've been minimal?
    I hate football and do wish people wouldn't keep talking about it like it's the most important thing in the world
  • angrycrow
    angrycrow Posts: 1,078 Forumite
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    interstellaflyer wrote: »
    The only issue I see here is that if the hose fail is common as suggested, why did the mechanic not recommend replacing the hose at the same time as he replaced the pump as a precaution, the extra labour would've been minimal?

    Because the hose is about £110 plus loads of extra labour to fit it as it is the complete circuit. How many customers would agree to a £250 bill because the pipe might leak in the future.
  • interstellaflyer
    interstellaflyer Posts: 2,053 Forumite
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    angrycrow wrote: »
    Because the hose is about £110 plus loads of extra labour to fit it as it is the complete circuit. How many customers would agree to a £250 bill because the pipe might leak in the future.

    But the OP had it done anyway and asked the same question so the extra cost wasn't an issue in it's self.
    I hate football and do wish people wouldn't keep talking about it like it's the most important thing in the world
  • IanMSpencer
    IanMSpencer Posts: 1,517 Forumite
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    I think the question is whether the garage is being unreasonable and also whether their knowledge has been of a professional quality.

    With a leak, a reasonable mechanic should be able to see where the leak is coming from, you clean the system, run it, and see where the oil starts appearing from. In this case, it seems the mechanic has noted that the oil has gone and concluded (amazingly!) that there is a leak, but not taken the time to check where the oil is going, simply guessing.

    I'd say two things:

    - don't go back there again.
    - you probably have a case that they have not been professional in properly identifying the leak in the first place.

    I would suggest that you go back and tell them that you are not happy that they just guessed at what was to be repaired. I think that they should make some refund as a gesture of goodwill at least.

    There are times when replacing parts, cheapest to more expensive is a reasonably cost effective way of identifying a problem - switching parts around often is the cheapest way of diagnosing electronic faults (and often the fitting of the part is a few minutes - the risk to the garage is having a part that they cannot re-use or return if they have to buy it in). With a leak, I'd suggest that no plumber would try and solve a leak by randomly replacing parts of the central heating, they'd find out where it was leaking, and the garage should have done the same.

    The only caveat is that if the garage had genuinely identified that the pump was faulty then there could be a second problem, as mentioned above, or the repair itself weakened the pipe (it could be for example, that the pump leaked and then the second leak was from a poor seal to the used pipework or damage from the pipework being moved around to fit the pump). Without having the knowledge of what the process was that the mechanic used to identify the problem, it is hard to chase down the real timeline of events, it is also hard to definitely say that the garage was at fault for the repair, regardless of your suspicions.
  • droopsnoot
    droopsnoot Posts: 1,758 Forumite
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    Oil leaks are a nightmare to diagnose and properly fix. I have just rebuilt a classic car from a bare shell, and my engine has some oil leaks, and even they are proving very difficult to find, in a clean engine bay with (as it's an old car) plenty of room around it. And when I say "even they" I don't mean because I'm some kind of super-mechanic, but that it's only recently gone back together, and I remember all the various checks and so on that I have done.

    Hard to say where a fault lies here, the garage is perhaps trying to help the customer by changing as little as possible each time, as they maybe felt that the customer wouldn't be happy if they just said "needs a new power steering pump and pipes". How many times do we hear people posting about how the garage changed too much stuff when just a fraction of the new parts would have been enough to fix a fault?

    The only solution is to learn to fix the car yourself. And when doing so, that gives you an appreciation for how difficult it can be to diagnose some issues.
  • AdrianC
    AdrianC Posts: 42,189 Forumite
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    IanMSpencer wrote: »
    With a leak, a reasonable mechanic should be able to see where the leak is coming from, you clean the system, run it, and see where the oil starts appearing from.
    I admire your optimism, verging on psychic abilities...

    However, it does appear that they did that correctly. The pump was leaking. When that was replaced, the pipe started.
  • IanMSpencer
    IanMSpencer Posts: 1,517 Forumite
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    AdrianC wrote: »
    I admire your optimism, verging on psychic abilities...

    However, it does appear that they did that correctly. The pump was leaking. When that was replaced, the pipe started.
    Depends on layout, but I would expect some sort of effort to isolate where the oil is coming from. Of course under a bonnet with dirt and stuff, it isn't going to be straight forward, but I got the sense that they hadn't even tried.

    I calm discussion with a mechanic should pin down whether they bothered looking or they simply did the "It's usually the pump so I'll change that".

    It's not necessarily wrong to change a component because you can't diagnose where the leak is from, but I'd expect someone to try in the first instance. To be honest, the "It's got a leak so I'll fix it by topping up the fluid" was pretty damning.
  • AdrianC
    AdrianC Posts: 42,189 Forumite
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    IanMSpencer wrote: »
    It's not necessarily wrong to change a component because you can't diagnose where the leak is from, but I'd expect someone to try in the first instance. To be honest, the "It's got a leak so I'll fix it by topping up the fluid" was pretty damning.
    Here's the car. The PS reservoir's empty, and "it's making a funny noise". Well, yes. So put more fluid in, bring it back if it does it again.

    It did it again, and is empty again. Do you...
    a. Refill it, clean up, send home again, come back again if it does it again?
    b. Refill it, drive it around yourself until there's evidence of where the leak's from?
    c. Replace the wettest, most likely component?

    You've replaced the pump. The pump was leaking. The pump is no longer leaking. The fluid is not escaping in anything like the short order.
    Weeks later, the pipe fails, too.
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