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  • FIRST POST
    • MSE Archna
    • By MSE Archna 18th Mar 08, 10:39 AM
    • 1,874Posts
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    MSE Archna
    TV Licence article Discussion
    • #1
    • 18th Mar 08, 10:39 AM
    TV Licence article Discussion 18th Mar 08 at 10:39 AM


    This thread is specifically to discuss the the


    To discuss or ask a question about this article: click reply
    Last edited by MSE Researcher; 14-06-2010 at 3:08 PM.
    Report inappropriate posts: forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com




Page 160
    • FreeBear
    • By FreeBear 19th May 19, 9:24 AM
    • 2,522 Posts
    • 3,406 Thanks
    FreeBear
    The only one I've seen at my door was a jumped up little s.... with aspirations above his station. He had neither the stature or presence to be anything more than a small annoyance.

    The best deterrent to prevent them from entering a property is a locked door. Anti vampire & zombie charms are not (normally) required. A magical spell uttered in old Saxon or Norse comes in handy if the door lock fails.
    Her courage will change the world.

    Treasure the moments that you have. Savour them for as long as you can for they will never come back again.
    • dekaspace
    • By dekaspace 20th May 19, 8:32 AM
    • 4,983 Posts
    • 4,681 Thanks
    dekaspace
    I had one last year, funnily enough I no longer watch tv I just stream because I used to have free sky tv and when that ran out I noticed I was just watching constant repeats on ITV2 and E4 and not much else which I could easily get online. When I let the guy in I outright showed him I had a capture card (with no aerial attached) and turned on tv in living room to show nothing tuned in, he said he could see a aerial wire at back of tv on floor that was under other wires therefore could be used, and wanted to have one more visit, really annoyed me.
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 20th May 19, 8:49 AM
    • 12,173 Posts
    • 13,733 Thanks
    Cornucopia
    The problem is that they fundamentally don't believe that people can live without live TV Channels. However, the evidence is that they increasingly can.

    I think TVL's approach on this is fundamentally wrong-headed. Their own figures are contradictory:

    "A TV Licensing spokesperson said: "Fewer than 2 per cent of households donít need a licence..."

    But

    "An enquiry officer may call at the address to verify the situation. TV Licensing visit a sample of homes to confirm there is in fact no television being used [sic] as, when we make contact on these visits, a fifth of people visited are found to require a TV Licence".

    So 2% of the overall population don't need a licence, but 80% of the households they visit don't need one. Hmmm.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • -taff
    • By -taff 20th May 19, 9:14 AM
    • 10,175 Posts
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    -taff
    I had the aerial taken off the roof when some work was done to the chimney so good luck to any visiting'enforcement' officers...
    • silverwhistle
    • By silverwhistle 20th May 19, 9:22 AM
    • 2,429 Posts
    • 3,526 Thanks
    silverwhistle
    Oooh, I've had a new communication format delivered by the postie: a little red card which opens up. More misinformation as it looks like one of those cards they leave if you are not in to take a delivery. It states "Card Delivered" then "By Hand " with a mock handwriting font.

    Then three mock ticked boxes 'urgent response required', Telephone lines open etc..' and 'Website available'


    The usual BUMPH inside about 'escalating our investigation' by a certain date, which as my GF observed, from numerous previous communications, was not truthful!


    Anyway, I'm prepared to tell them the truth that I've never owned (possessed, borrowed, hired, had use of...) a colour telly, but I still won't be revealing any names..
    • Ego_Shredder
    • By Ego_Shredder 20th May 19, 10:24 AM
    • 52 Posts
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    Ego_Shredder
    I wish I could say, "if I find evidence of you transmitting TV signals or programme content into my property I will sue you".
    What goes around - comes around
    give lots and you will always receive lots
    • cw18
    • By cw18 20th May 19, 7:41 PM
    • 8,052 Posts
    • 86,004 Thanks
    cw18
    Anyway, I'm prepared to tell them the truth that I've never owned (possessed, borrowed, hired, had use of...) a colour telly, but I still won't be revealing any names..
    Originally posted by silverwhistle
    But do you have a laptop or smartphone or any other device that has the capability to stream, and access to the internet. If so, then you could be watching something that requires a licence.....






    I'm not suggesting that you do, purely stating that not having a TV in the house isn't enough of a defence for not needing one these days. I have 3 TVs, but still don't need one as I only use them for Netflix, Prime, NowTV and watching DVDs. I don't even use catch-up services from ITV etc which are also allowed.
    Cheryl
    • silverwhistle
    • By silverwhistle 21st May 19, 4:22 PM
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    • 3,526 Thanks
    silverwhistle
    But do you have a laptop or smartphone or any other device that has the capability to stream, and access to the internet. If so, then you could be watching something that requires a licence......
    Originally posted by cw18

    Of course, but never having a TV rather underlines the unimportance I put on the medium, and watching on a small phone when I could easily afford a TV seems a bit desperate and rather a masochistic exercise.
    • Dibdab01
    • By Dibdab01 25th May 19, 8:39 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Dibdab01
    No Licence required - update.
    I find it hard to believe that they cannot change the information alot quicker on their system when people have passed away. Especially when all the info was passed to them as they requested straight away as needed.

    They have since got back to me to say that they are extremely sorry and are sending some sort of good will gesture apparently - but nothing has arrived that I've seen. Also a refund of over payments that I had made just out of habit though have not seen that as yet either.

    I enjoy and much prefer to listen too Music and read a good Book. Just a shame they can't believe anyone who genuinely can survive without the Propaganda Box in the corner of the room.

    Thanks for all the info and help and will update you if the issue turns out to be unresolved still down the line...
    • LeeUK
    • By LeeUK 25th May 19, 8:54 PM
    • 6,341 Posts
    • 2,900 Thanks
    LeeUK
    But do you have a laptop or smartphone or any other device that has the capability to stream, and access to the internet. If so, then you could be watching something that requires a licence.....






    I'm not suggesting that you do, purely stating that not having a TV in the house isn't enough of a defence for not needing one these days. I have 3 TVs, but still don't need one as I only use them for Netflix, Prime, NowTV and watching DVDs. I don't even use catch-up services from ITV etc which are also allowed.
    Originally posted by cw18
    Just because my phone is capable of watching iPlayer does not mean I HAVE to buy a licence in case I download the app and watch it even if I didn't own a TV.

    It is still for TVL to PROVE that I am watching TV broadcasts and iPlayer, not for me to prove I'm not.
    • dan958
    • By dan958 29th May 19, 10:13 AM
    • 105 Posts
    • 161 Thanks
    dan958
    I enjoy and much prefer to listen too Music and read a good Book. Just a shame they can't believe anyone who genuinely can survive without the Propaganda Box in the corner of the room..
    Originally posted by Dibdab01
    Besides, when you have a hobby such as making tin foil hats, who needs a TV?


    I received one letter once I moved into my new home regarding a TV licence, and havent heard anything since/ I'm sure they will evwntually start hounding me again, but I don't require a TV licence.
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 29th May 19, 11:37 AM
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    Cornucopia
    Besides, when you have a hobby such as making tin foil hats, who needs a TV?
    Originally posted by dan958
    In some ways, I'd prefer it if some of the reported issues with TV Licensing were down to tin-foil-hattery - it would certainly be reassuring.

    However, the evidence of their skullduggery is pretty solid, and there is even some evidence of malice behind some of it, too.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • Ego_Shredder
    • By Ego_Shredder 30th May 19, 9:01 AM
    • 52 Posts
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    Ego_Shredder
    Rather than use the lazy "tin foil hat" slur on people, I prefer to see if there is any truth to what some people have uncovered or proposed. Some of it can appear far fetched, but not always.
    What goes around - comes around
    give lots and you will always receive lots
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 30th May 19, 9:38 AM
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    Cornucopia
    Totally agree.

    I think people would be amazed at the kind of things that TV Licensing get up to - either as a matter of policy, or by way of a roguish contingent in their field enforcement staff.

    One of the main issues is that the TV Licensing regime is not specified in legislation. (It goes as far as to specify that the BBC should administer Licences, and it sets out powers for Search Warrants that TVL barely uses).

    Everything else, the BBC/TV Licensing/Capita have implemented of their own volition. That makes it legally weak, but also means that what would otherwise be the protections of joined-up legislation are absent.

    From there, we start to enter a weird netherworld in which a Public Authority seeks to engage the Public in a non-statutory enforcement process, that the Public have every right to ignore and then the Public Authority gets cantankerous if they do.

    That's objectively wrong.

    It also likes to use an approach and language that implies some kind of authority behind its actions where none exists.

    That's objectively wrong.

    Then it seeks to use a form of coercion over the cessation of its enforcement letters being contingent on co-operation with its No Licence Needed process.

    Understandable, but objectively wrong.

    Then it escalates things by sending salespeople round (but it calls them "Enforcement Officers"). Those people are improperly supervised, and some of them take liberties with the truth and with the process. (A process that isn't well designed to start with). PACE applies to TVL interviews under caution, but key principles are being overlooked.

    That's objectively wrong.

    Furthermore, the entry of TV Licensing to people's homes is covered by the Human Rights Act. However, whilst the BBC accepts its coverage it doesn't accept its key principles. In particular, there is a requirement for the activity to be authorised by Legislation (or "other rules" of a similar status) and that such authorisation should be Explicit, Specific, Accessible (to the Public), Understandable by the Public and Proof against Arbitrariness.

    TVL's approach does not meet these requirements (doesn't even try). It is therefore questionable, and probably wrong.
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 30-05-2019 at 8:22 PM.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • FreeBear
    • By FreeBear 30th May 19, 10:04 AM
    • 2,522 Posts
    • 3,406 Thanks
    FreeBear
    It also likes to use an approach and language that implies some kind of authority behind its actions where none exists.
    Originally posted by Cornucopia
    They assume that because you do not have a licence, you are engaged in illegal activities (watching live broadcasts & iPlayer). This goes against one of the core tenants of English law that one is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.
    Then there is the ongoing and continuous "investigations" when there isn't a shred of evidence to justify their activities - The police will investigate a crime and will cease when it becomes apparent that there is no evidence, not so the TVL.

    Legally questionable on their part and morally repugnant.
    Her courage will change the world.

    Treasure the moments that you have. Savour them for as long as you can for they will never come back again.
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 30th May 19, 12:28 PM
    • 12,173 Posts
    • 13,733 Thanks
    Cornucopia
    They assume that because you do not have a licence, you are engaged in illegal activities (watching live broadcasts & iPlayer). This goes against one of the core tenants of English law that one is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.
    Originally posted by FreeBear
    Morally wrong, but technically "innocent until proven guilty" applies only in matters before a Court. I agree that TVL should not be implying or assuming guilt in the way that they do, and of course no one in the UK (outset of Terrorism offences) is required to prove their own innocence in an investigation.

    They still need to treat innocent people with respect, which they arguably fail to do - in fact it seems that they are pathologically incapable of doing so.

    Then there is the ongoing and continuous "investigations" when there isn't a shred of evidence to justify their activities - The police will investigate a crime and will cease when it becomes apparent that there is no evidence, not so the TVL.

    Legally questionable on their part and morally repugnant.
    Those, I think, are simply a fiction. The reality is that there is no "investigation" in any meaningful sense.

    Their use of fictitious and theatrical devices in their enforcement activities goes way too far and I think it originates from their inability to distinguish between marketing and enforcement (which runs all through their process).
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 30-05-2019 at 12:32 PM.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • Jackmydad
    • By Jackmydad 30th May 19, 2:22 PM
    • 6,082 Posts
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    Jackmydad
    Exaggerated idea of their own importance I reckon.
    BBC and TVL.
    • Bedsit Bob
    • By Bedsit Bob 1st Jun 19, 1:48 PM
    • 10,611 Posts
    • 57,505 Thanks
    Bedsit Bob
    and some of them take liberties with the truth
    Originally posted by Cornucopia
    AKA Telling a pack of lies.
    1984 WAS NOT AN INSTRUCTION MANUAL.

    Amount I have so far denied the BBC - £1308

    You can't be a Christian AND a Socialist.
    • Section106
    • By Section106 10th Jun 19, 4:14 PM
    • 88 Posts
    • 148 Thanks
    Section106
    The end (from June 2020) of automatic free TV licences for all over-75s.....

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-48583487

    Perhaps this will hasten the scrapping of the licence completely?

    (Or expose more vulnerable people to TVL's unpleasant tactics)
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 10th Jun 19, 4:16 PM
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    • 13,733 Thanks
    Cornucopia
    There is already an MSE official thread for this news here:-

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=6011961
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
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