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  • FIRST POST
    • MSE Archna
    • By MSE Archna 18th Mar 08, 10:39 AM
    • 1,874Posts
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    MSE Archna
    TV Licence article Discussion
    • #1
    • 18th Mar 08, 10:39 AM
    TV Licence article Discussion 18th Mar 08 at 10:39 AM


    This thread is specifically to discuss the the


    To discuss or ask a question about this article: click reply
    Last edited by MSE Researcher; 14-06-2010 at 3:08 PM.
    Report inappropriate posts: forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com




Page 157
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 20th Apr 19, 7:38 AM
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    • 13,627 Thanks
    Cornucopia
    The "nearly one in six" figure from TVL is interesting for the reasons above, and because it's slightly strange that this very secretive pseudo-organisation chooses to publish it. It's not a particularly compelling statistic for their cause, and amongst all of their stats which barely move from year to year, this one and the gender-bias one have moved considerably over the years, showing their search for evaders becoming less and less effective (and more and more gender-biased).

    "1 in 6" also comes with an important caveat - that is it based upon numbers of households that have previously claimed not to need a Licence. We can speculate about what that actually means (in the absence of more detail from TVL), but the most likely explanation is that it relates to people who have completed the "No Licence Needed" online form or told TVL's customer services in some other way. That's a somewhat odd group to highlight in this way, not least because it is a self-selecting group who choose to abide by TVL's process even though they do not have to. Perhaps the value to TVL is the implication that even though that group has volunteered information, they have still been "visited" and 1 in 6 of those visits have enabled the procurement of a viable evasion case by "whatever means necessary". Even so, we do not know what it is 1 in 6 of.

    The bigger, more statistically valid numbers look like this:

    - c. 4 million attempted "visits".
    - Around 20% access rate (fairly typical) = 800,000 contacts
    - Of which around half procure "evidence" = 400,000 cases
    - Of which half are dropped = 200,000 cases remaining
    - 200,000 cases to Court, of which around a third are subsequently withdrawn.

    Or in other words an effectiveness measure of around 4% (subject to a caveat about whether the dropping of more than half of all cases is a win or a fail, and subject to not accounting fully for Scotland, where the process is different).
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 20-04-2019 at 7:57 AM.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • FreeBear
    • By FreeBear 20th Apr 19, 2:48 PM
    • 2,507 Posts
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    FreeBear
    I've just received my 115th letter from TVL, and you've got to admire their optimism, after I've ignored the previous 114 letters.
    Originally posted by Bedsit Bob
    You actually waste time opening and reading these letters....

    Myself,I just stack the letters unopened by the door ready to hand to a TVL representitive should one call... Presumptous little !!!!!!s referring to themselfs as "officers".. As if that confers any greater powers on them.
    Her courage will change the world.

    Treasure the moments that you have. Savour them for as long as you can for they will never come back again.
    • Jackmydad
    • By Jackmydad 20th Apr 19, 4:10 PM
    • 6,028 Posts
    • 19,844 Thanks
    Jackmydad
    Actually, I was referring to the fact that more than five in six don't require a licence, so the default presumption should be one of innocence, since that is, by far, the majority state.
    Originally posted by Bedsit Bob
    Yes, I understand that, but I was just wondering if the whole process of chasing people is then cost effective.
    Cornucopia's figures seem to suggest even more so that they're not.
    • silverwhistle
    • By silverwhistle 20th Apr 19, 8:48 PM
    • 2,418 Posts
    • 3,495 Thanks
    silverwhistle
    Myself,I just stack the letters unopened by the door ready to hand to a TVL representitive should one call...
    Originally posted by FreeBear

    You actually waste time and space keeping them?! On the vague off-chance they might visit? "Will you be in on the 17th October?" Well, I've been in pretty well every time they've said they'll be calling, which is now, 7/8/9 times perhaps for that particular version of their letters.



    Now that my wood-burning stove season is over I may get an accumulation in the log basket. Having 'The Legal Occupier" as the addressee certainly makes it a swift process for disposal.
    • Bedsit Bob
    • By Bedsit Bob 21st Apr 19, 9:47 AM
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    Bedsit Bob
    You actually waste time opening and reading these letters....
    Originally posted by FreeBear
    I do more than that.

    I keep them in a file folder, so that, when I'm feeling down, I can have a read through them and cheer myself up.

    I recall all the nice things I've bought, with that 1308.
    1984 WAS NOT AN INSTRUCTION MANUAL.

    Amount I have so far denied the BBC - 1308

    You can't be a Christian AND a Socialist.
    • Temi17
    • By Temi17 21st Apr 19, 10:37 AM
    • 1 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Temi17
    Can I buy a tv only to stream Netflix?
    • Nick_C
    • By Nick_C 21st Apr 19, 10:42 AM
    • 5,005 Posts
    • 7,735 Thanks
    Nick_C
    Can I buy a tv only to stream Netflix?
    Originally posted by Temi17
    If you need to!

    If you mean "I only watch Netflix, do I need a TV license" the answer is no, you don't.

    Watch Netflix, Now TV box sets, Amazon Video, ITV Hub, 4OD etc etc to your heart's content.

    Just dont watch live TV programmes or iPlayer, and you don't need a license.
    • Ego_Shredder
    • By Ego_Shredder 23rd Apr 19, 3:24 AM
    • 52 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Ego_Shredder
    Hmmm...do the declaration or not
    I've so far not bothered to fill out and submit the online form, to say I do not need a licence. The letters keep coming and the threat of court action etc. So should I bother with the online declaration or not? Meanwhile the TV sits in the room, switched off and silent and never to flicker to life ever again. The Virgin Media box is unplugged and propped against the wall. The roof still has no replacement aerial installed, for the one taken down in 2011.


    Life without the BBC and TV in general is the way to be
    What goes around - comes around
    give lots and you will always receive lots
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 23rd Apr 19, 7:16 AM
    • 12,120 Posts
    • 13,627 Thanks
    Cornucopia
    I've so far not bothered to fill out and submit the online form, to say I do not need a licence. The letters keep coming and the threat of court action etc. So should I bother with the online declaration or not?
    Originally posted by Ego_Shredder
    Unfortunately, there's no definitive answer that, because completing the form and not completing each have their own set of pros and cons.

    On the plus side (in favour of completing the form):-

    - It should stop the letters, for up to 24 months (but there are other ways of achieving this, if the letters bother you (and they may not)).

    - It may make them approach you differently should they ever visit (but makes no difference to the advice never to speak with them at your home).

    On the minus side:-

    - They say they may still visit you "to check" (that you aren't lying).

    - You may not want to comply with their wishes on a point of principle (and you do not have to). Their entire "letters gambit" is something of an act of blackmail - comply with our wishes, or we will keep writing to you until you do.

    - You do not want to provide any information that they might subsequently use to more effectively harass you. (You could use a slightly false name, which has some advantage).

    As a third way, you could ask them what they plan to do with any information you give them. This is essentially a right under the Data Protection Act. This could be the opening to a formal complaint about misuse of personal data with the Information Commissioner.


    ...The Virgin Media box is unplugged and propped against the wall...
    Sometimes people ask for advice on being Legally Licence-Free whilst they still have their Sky or VM Pay TV contracts in place (but unused). This is a bad idea.
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 23-04-2019 at 7:21 AM.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • FreeBear
    • By FreeBear 23rd Apr 19, 9:50 AM
    • 2,507 Posts
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    FreeBear
    - You do not want to provide any information that they might subsequently use to more effectively harass you. (You could use a slightly false name, which has some advantage).
    Originally posted by Cornucopia

    Would they accept the name "The Legal Occupier" ?
    It is whom they address all their missives to that land on my doormat, and it has crossed my mind to register no licence required using that title. I have my doubts it will change anything, so haven't bothered.
    Her courage will change the world.

    Treasure the moments that you have. Savour them for as long as you can for they will never come back again.
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 23rd Apr 19, 10:08 AM
    • 12,120 Posts
    • 13,627 Thanks
    Cornucopia
    Would they accept the name "The Legal Occupier" ?
    It is whom they address all their missives to that land on my doormat, and it has crossed my mind to register no licence required using that title. I have my doubts it will change anything, so haven't bothered.
    Originally posted by FreeBear
    The process is automated, so I doubt it would throw it out. The fields are structured only for initials and surname, so you'd have to format "The Legal Occupier" accordingly, and the further you get from that actual text, the less chance there is for them to reject it. So maybe "T. Legal-Occupier" might do the trick.

    Also, the Title field has a drop-down list with many tempting options. I think I might go for "Lord TV Licence".

    In case anyone is wondering, this information is not requested by TVL on a statutory basis, and it is not an offence (or a contractual breach) to provide "incorrect" information to them unless the intention is criminal fraud.
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 23-04-2019 at 10:12 AM.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • Bedsit Bob
    • By Bedsit Bob 23rd Apr 19, 8:05 PM
    • 10,607 Posts
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    Bedsit Bob
    So should I bother with the online declaration or not?
    Originally posted by Ego_Shredder
    Personally, I wouldn't, and never have.

    Indeed, as Cornucopia will no doubt confirm, I have not interacting with them down to a fine art.
    1984 WAS NOT AN INSTRUCTION MANUAL.

    Amount I have so far denied the BBC - 1308

    You can't be a Christian AND a Socialist.
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 23rd Apr 19, 8:47 PM
    • 12,120 Posts
    • 13,627 Thanks
    Cornucopia
    Personally, I wouldn't, and never have.

    Indeed, as Cornucopia will no doubt confirm, I have not interacting with them down to a fine art.
    Originally posted by Bedsit Bob
    The thing that I respect about your approach (filming silently from an upstairs window as the TVL staff member looks up in disbelief) is it gets to so many of the fundamental issues and principles. Every aspect of law was on your side, and the TVL person was powerless as a result.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • JimmyTheWig
    • By JimmyTheWig 24th Apr 19, 10:50 AM
    • 11,860 Posts
    • 11,398 Thanks
    JimmyTheWig
    I've just received my 115th letter from TVL, and you've got to admire their optimism, after I've ignored the previous 114 letters.



    Originally posted by Bedsit Bob
    I wonder what they do with themselves in the afternoons?
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 24th Apr 19, 10:59 AM
    • 12,120 Posts
    • 13,627 Thanks
    Cornucopia
    I wonder what they do with themselves in the afternoons?
    Originally posted by JimmyTheWig
    Doughnuts?

    BTW, that error in the phrasing has been there for a long while.
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 24-04-2019 at 9:12 PM.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • Bedsit Bob
    • By Bedsit Bob 24th Apr 19, 8:51 PM
    • 10,607 Posts
    • 57,504 Thanks
    Bedsit Bob
    I wonder what they do with themselves in the afternoons?
    Originally posted by JimmyTheWig
    Self gratification?
    1984 WAS NOT AN INSTRUCTION MANUAL.

    Amount I have so far denied the BBC - 1308

    You can't be a Christian AND a Socialist.
    • Blue_Max
    • By Blue_Max 24th Apr 19, 10:07 PM
    • 705 Posts
    • 168 Thanks
    Blue_Max
    I received some letters recently with their usual threats and in addition their intention to visit.
    Dates were also given. But no one turned up.
    With these kind of phoney threats, TVL persons ('goons' as they are often reffered to) are losing their credibleness.

    Last edited by Blue_Max; 24-04-2019 at 10:09 PM.
    • Blue_Max
    • By Blue_Max 24th Apr 19, 10:16 PM
    • 705 Posts
    • 168 Thanks
    Blue_Max
    The bigger, more statistically valid numbers look like this:
    - c. 4 million attempted "visits".
    - Around 20% access rate (fairly typical) = 800,000 contacts
    - Of which around half procure "evidence" = 400,000 cases
    - Of which half are dropped = 200,000 cases remaining
    - 200,000 cases to Court, of which around a third are subsequently withdrawn.
    Originally posted by Cornucopia
    Any figures on the amounts collected and the cost of running the TVL collection machine?
    • FreeBear
    • By FreeBear 24th Apr 19, 10:56 PM
    • 2,507 Posts
    • 3,386 Thanks
    FreeBear
    Any figures on the amounts collected and the cost of running the TVL collection machine?
    Originally posted by Blue_Max

    https://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/about/foi-financial-information-AB19


    A total of 101,000,000 was spent in the collection of TV licence fees in 2017/18. No breakdown of how much is spent on enforcement as this is a matter between the BBC and Capita (they'd probably claim "commercially sensitive information).
    Her courage will change the world.

    Treasure the moments that you have. Savour them for as long as you can for they will never come back again.
    • Blue_Max
    • By Blue_Max 24th Apr 19, 11:07 PM
    • 705 Posts
    • 168 Thanks
    Blue_Max
    What A Waste!
    "101,000,000 was spent"
    In just one year
    Last edited by Blue_Max; 24-04-2019 at 11:10 PM.
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