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  • FIRST POST
    • Scrumpy11
    • By Scrumpy11 10th Apr 19, 2:29 PM
    • 45Posts
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    Scrumpy11
    residential parking - Recieved PCN for not displaying my Permit
    • #1
    • 10th Apr 19, 2:29 PM
    residential parking - Recieved PCN for not displaying my Permit 10th Apr 19 at 2:29 PM
    Hi all,

    Could do will a little help.

    I have received a ‘Parking Charge Notice’ for parking behind my property of over 20 years. I was aware of the site being managed by a parking company but failed to take my permit out of the glovebox after working a night shift. The operator does have permission to operate on the land by my Housing Association.

    I received a PCN to registered keeper 9 days from alleged contravention. I admitted I was the driver but denied any contravention ever occurred for the following reasons:

    • The Contravention did not occur. In Jan, my vehicle: a '*************' was not parked at the location as stated by the parking operator. My vehicle was in fact parked behind my home of over 23 years: "Address hidden." The two addresses are completely different. They are separate carparks, with a six-foot fence dividing them (no through road), they are on separate roads wit separate post codes. Therefore, the PCN should be void, as I was not parked in the location as stated on the PCN. To get to one car park to another you would have to negotiate two separate roads, some 158 feet apart.

    The land owner has requested that the PCN be cancelled, the parking company are ignoring this.

    • The parking company are a limited company whom have obligations such as informing ‘Companies House’ if they change their address to which their company is registered. The parking company moved out of their address in January 2018. Yet, failed to inform companies House of the change when they updated their accounts in February 2018/2019. even signed two conformation statement. The Parking company are operating, issuing tickets from an address in which they no longer occupy which is illegal. The old address is even on the PCN.

    I have spoken to local residents and photographic evidence that they no longer occupy the address to which their company is registered to.

    • The signs displayed did not conform to current regulations. The sign displayed at the front of the scheme was their old company’s sign with a piece of paper stuck over old details. The size of the text was too small, not illuminated and displayed a company registration number which was not tiered to a current address of which the company occupy.

    • The land owner (housing association), Have signs larger in size and depicting larger text which have been displayed before I moved in in 1995. The main sign at the entrance to our scheme states (This carpark is for residents and visitors only), I had parked within the parameters of this sign as I am a resident. In order for CMS's signs to become enforceable, This older sign sign should have been removed.

    • I had parked within the confines of my primary contract (tenancy agreement- issued Dec 1995). The idea behind primacy is that a contract cannot be unilaterally altered by one party without the permission of the other. In the case of residential parking, the lease is the key document. I have unfettered rights to park in the carpark: "Address hidden" with no mention of permit or parking system. This cannot be changed or altered in anyway by the parking company, as in the case of "Link Parking v Mrs P: case No C7GF50J7."

    a) Link Parking V Mrs P - it was found that the Parking company could not override the tenants right to park requiring a permit.


    b) In Joseph V Homegaurd 2016, case no: B9GF09AR. It was established "Parking Eye v Bevis 2015 (UKSC67), Does not apply to residential parking. therefore, brings the penalty doctrine back into play.


    I have evidence that the sign at the entrance to the scheme does not comply to current regulations. Its a sign with the parking companies details stuck on with paper. My last recorded evidence was 12 March. Although the sign was changed on around the
    20th March 2019

    The parking company gave evidence to the IAS in the way of an 'image' of a sign and a sign in 'a van'. This was on the 08th March, neither signs were displayed at the scheme at the time of the alleged contravention. The main sign was changed around the 20th March to the sign which they falsely stated to the IAS was displayed at the time of the alleged contravention.

    The IAS/ IPC have ignored the fact that the evidence was false and insufficient, that the Company's registered address is no longer in use (which has to be displayed on the PCN)

    The matter is now with ZZPS...

    I appreciate any help you maybe able to offer.
Page 1
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 10th Apr 19, 2:41 PM
    • 13,460 Posts
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    The Deep
    • #2
    • 10th Apr 19, 2:41 PM
    • #2
    • 10th Apr 19, 2:41 PM
    Looks good, get your MP on board, these days of these scammers are numbered. PPCs have no place in residential car parks, and if the HA support you they would crash and burn if they were daft enough to take you to court. Involve you MP, they are aware of these scammers, who have no place in residential car parks.

    On 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these private parking companies. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, and persistent offenders denied access. Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers.

    Until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

    Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Scrumpy11
    • By Scrumpy11 10th Apr 19, 3:14 PM
    • 45 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    Scrumpy11
    • #3
    • 10th Apr 19, 3:14 PM
    • #3
    • 10th Apr 19, 3:14 PM
    I have complained to the DVLA, Companies House, HMRC and my local MP.. Awaiting a response.

    As far as I am aware it is illegal for a Limited company to trade from an address they no longer occupy. This will be the basis of my defence.

    A PCN needs to have their registered address on it. The fact that the company no longer occupies this address should be against the code of conduct (I need to look into this more.)

    The false evidence which was given to and accepted by the IAS should further strengthen my defence.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 10th Apr 19, 3:18 PM
    • 13,460 Posts
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    The Deep
    • #4
    • 10th Apr 19, 3:18 PM
    • #4
    • 10th Apr 19, 3:18 PM
    As far as I am aware it is illegal for a Limited company to trade from an address they no longer occupy. This will be the basis of my defence.

    I very much doubt that a Judge would be interested, make primacy of contract you main argument.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Scrumpy11
    • By Scrumpy11 10th Apr 19, 3:26 PM
    • 45 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    Scrumpy11
    • #5
    • 10th Apr 19, 3:26 PM
    • #5
    • 10th Apr 19, 3:26 PM
    Thank you. I will, Im glad I still have the original document.

    I find it hard that a company whom are operating illegally are allowed to get away with operating like this, when they are breaking regulations set in Parliament and Their own Code of conduct.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 10th Apr 19, 4:22 PM
    • 15,234 Posts
    • 17,742 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #6
    • 10th Apr 19, 4:22 PM
    • #6
    • 10th Apr 19, 4:22 PM
    A company does not have to trade from their Registered Address.

    Many companies use their accountant's or their solicitor's address as their Registered Address.
    .
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 10th Apr 19, 4:23 PM
    • 4,706 Posts
    • 6,784 Thanks
    Half_way
    • #7
    • 10th Apr 19, 4:23 PM
    • #7
    • 10th Apr 19, 4:23 PM
    Youve been parking there for 20 years, have you always had a permit?
    why do you need a permit?
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Scrumpy11
    • By Scrumpy11 10th Apr 19, 4:45 PM
    • 45 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    Scrumpy11
    • #8
    • 10th Apr 19, 4:45 PM
    • #8
    • 10th Apr 19, 4:45 PM
    Around 2007, my landlord introduces MPC, I had them removed as they were a 'Cowboy Company' as stated by the BBC's inside our programme.

    Over the last few years, the Land lord has now contracted this new company, which I have never agreed to.

    I tend to park on the road as I am in a flat and I can see my vehicle, although there is not always space. We have had loads of breakings, cart thief and general problems on our scheme.

    I did have a permit but working shifts I did not remember to display it...

    My argument it, at no point in my tenancy agreement goes it mention that I am required to display a 'Permit' to park my vehicle behind my property.

    The signs which were displayed at the time, did not conform to current regulations. Hence why the parking company lied on what signs were displayed

    I am pretty sure, although this needs checking... The PCN must contain certain information.. This includes their company number and registered address. They are issuing PCN's from an address which they no longer occupy. .

    They gave the complete wrong address of where my car was parked. They did not even try and say that tey made a mistake... Instead they said the two carparks are one... Even though on separate roads in separate postcodes. The car park has a six foot fence dividing them, there is no through road, Although they can argue latter that its the same land.

    Im no expert... Im just looking at facts
    • Scrumpy11
    • By Scrumpy11 10th Apr 19, 6:14 PM
    • 45 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    Scrumpy11
    • #9
    • 10th Apr 19, 6:14 PM
    • #9
    • 10th Apr 19, 6:14 PM
    Thank you Keith,

    This company is still trading from this address they moved out of in January 2018, they hav even signed two 'Conformation Statements' (the old annual returns), confirming this, but no change of address.

    Signage mist contain certain information, to adhere to the code, such as their company number. The address and registered number is even on the PCN which they issued, which, as far as I am aware, has to be displayed to conform to the code of practice.

    My question is: How can a company issue an Invoice (PCN) from an address in which they no longer occupy?

    A limited company has certain responsibilities as set out in the 'Companies Act 2006' this company has not met these responsibilities.. Therefore, inn the eyes of the law, are trading illegally.

    The company are not trading from any other address, other than one in which they do not own... Companies House has confirmed that there has been no change since March 2016. There own PCN confirms this.


    As I said, I am not sure on this but I feel this is good grounds... Although I am not that clued up and its great to receive others point of view.

    Thank you.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Apr 19, 12:52 AM
    • 73,405 Posts
    • 85,495 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Same firm as this one?

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5989344

    You need to concentrate on your primacy of contract as a resident, and have a go at the MA to cancel this scam PCN and to accept that you do NOT agree to the permit scheme, put that in writing and tell them they cannot impose such an onerous scheme on residents with existing parking rights.

    Are the signs as bad/small print as in that linked case? Take photos now.

    Ignore ZZPS entirely.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Scrumpy11
    • By Scrumpy11 13th Apr 19, 11:24 AM
    • 45 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    Scrumpy11
    Coupon-mad...

    yes, same firm, thank you for link

    The signs were really bad.. a Piece of paper (small) stuck onto a sign. The sign did not conform to current regulations. My last photograph was time/ date stamped the 12th March. The parking Operator changed their signs on the 20th March to bring them in line with the false evidence they supplied to the IAS on the 8th of march. I can prove they gave false evidence to the IAS, denying me a fair appeal.

    My trail thought:

    A company needs to include their registered number on signs and address on Invoices, a PCN is an Invoice. A company must always have a 'Registered Address' Both are set out in the 'Companies Act 2006'. This operator has 'no' registered address therefore are operating illegally.

    If they are operating illegally, then how can they bring a claim against me?

    Company's registered address:

    The parking company is operating from and sent me an Invoice from an address they no longer occupy and dont own: "**********************"’ as seen on the Invoice you sent me dated January 2019. Therefore have broken regulations as set in ‘Companies Act 2006.’ Which states: -

    2006 c. 46. Part 6, General, Section 86: -

    A company's registered office-

    (1) A. company must at all times have a registered office to which all communications and notices may be addressed.

    The parking company have issued an Invoice from an address they no longer Occupy. They moved out of their registered address in January 2018 yet filed two ‘Conformation Statements and their annual report’ in February 2018 and 2019 with companies house. CMs have broken regulations as set in the ‘Companies Act 2006.’ Which states: -

    2006 c. 46. Part 6, General, Section 87: -

    Change of address of registered office-

    (1) A company may change the address of its registered office by giving notice to the registrar.

    (2) The change takes effect upon the notice being registered by the registrar, but until the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date on which it is registered a person may validly serve any document on the company at the address previously registered.

    (3) For the purposes of any duty of a company—

    (a)to keep available for inspection at its registered office any register, index or other document, or
    (b)to mention the address of its registered office in any document, (this includes invoices)

    So if a Company needs to have a 'Registered Address' to operate as set in the 'Companies Act 2006' How can they bring a legal claim against me?

    The Invoice (PCN) is sent from an Address in which they no longer Occupy.. Therefor the Invoice should be void... An Invoice must contain the companies registered address...

    The above is Law.
    Last edited by Scrumpy11; 13-04-2019 at 11:52 AM.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 13th Apr 19, 11:40 AM
    • 13,460 Posts
    • 13,805 Thanks
    The Deep
    Are you familiar with this forum?

    https://forums.landlordzone.co.uk/forum/long-leasehold-questions/1055741-calling-an-agm
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Scrumpy11
    • By Scrumpy11 13th Apr 19, 11:46 AM
    • 45 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    Scrumpy11
    The Deep, I was not aware, thank you.
    • Scrumpy11
    • By Scrumpy11 13th Apr 19, 12:48 PM
    • 45 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    Scrumpy11
    Sorry all.. New to this.

    Also, my NTD was left on the my car on the 25th of Jan... I received my PCN on the 30th of Jan.. Am I right in reading that there should be 28 days - 56 days from the NTD was issued, breaching their KADOE contract.

    I am compiling a case to complain to the DVLA

    The NTK: -

    Advanced warning

    This vehicle is parked in contravention of the rules of the parking site. Vehicle and particulars and images have been recorded to prove the contravention occurred.

    We will now request the keepers details from the DVLA and issue a 'Parking charge notice' by post to the keeper.

    If you are the keeper or driver and wish to discuss this ahead of receiving the Parking charge notice, you may call PCN admin centre on ********** and quote the vehicle registration mark for more information and details of how to view images online.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 13th Apr 19, 12:53 PM
    • 15,234 Posts
    • 17,742 Thanks
    KeithP
    Am I right in reading that there should be 28 days - 56 days from the NTD was issued, breaching their KADOE contract.
    Originally posted by Scrumpy11
    No, you are not right.

    They can ask for keeper details from the DVLA at anytime within six months following the alleged incident for the reason of asking the keeper for the name and address of the driver.

    That '28 - 56 days' thing is simply to do with whether or not they can transfer the driver's liabilities to the keeper under the Protection of Freedoms Act.
    .
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 13th Apr 19, 12:56 PM
    • 4,706 Posts
    • 6,784 Thanks
    Half_way
    You need to get the management company involved in this, and you need to make it clear that you do but after to this parking scheme, and up to now have only displayed a permit out of courtesy.
    Also tell them that you are willing to return any permit upon the receipt of a stamped addressed envelope.
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Scrumpy11
    • By Scrumpy11 13th Apr 19, 12:57 PM
    • 45 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    Scrumpy11
    Just looking for loopholes.. thank you Kieth
    • Scrumpy11
    • By Scrumpy11 13th Apr 19, 1:02 PM
    • 45 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    Scrumpy11
    Half way, thank you.

    I have the land owner saying that thy will ask the operator for the third time to cancel the PCN. They were not brought onto the scheme to harass 'residents' or 'visitors' the operator is of course ignoring this.

    I have also demanded they be removed from the scheme as I have never aggreged to this operator and they gave false evidence against me, a 'resident.'

    Awaiting response.
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 13th Apr 19, 2:45 PM
    • 4,706 Posts
    • 6,784 Thanks
    Half_way
    Do you have a hard copy of this cancellation request?
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Scrumpy11
    • By Scrumpy11 13th Apr 19, 3:07 PM
    • 45 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    Scrumpy11
    I also have the following letter, which seems to me they land owner is sitting on the fence, the scheme was introduced to stop vehicles parking in the entrance of the schemes restricting access to emergency vehicles (ambulances) and bin lorries.

    There was an issue with other carpark as its too small to accommodate residents.. never with ours as our is too big. There are nop problems with non-residents parking on site...

    Land owner initial letter: -

    Thank-you for your letter dated 29 March 2019. I note that you have also exchanged several e-mails with my Neighbourhood Officer, Ms.... as well as telephone calls into our contact centre.

    You have raised a number of issues with relation to office location, signage, CMS’ appeals process and the car park(s).

    Our only intent in introducing a civil parking scheme at Winifride Court was to seek to reduce the number of non-residents parking at the scheme who were using the car-park either because it was close to their place of work in Harborne or who were going to the high street to shop. We fielded many complaints from residents that this was taking place, preventing residents from parking and, following consultation, introduced the civil parking scheme.

    The intention is not to ticket residents or their visitors which is why we issued all of our residents with permits they could display to void receiving a parking ticket.

    However, it is certain that if we were to cease with the civil parking arrangements at Winifride Court we will very quickly return to the situation where residents are unable to park their vehicles because shoppers, shop workers and office workers are parking at the scheme.

    Very occasionally residents may fail to display their tickets and if this is a one-off occurrence we will try to intervene if we are notified in sufficient time. However, if we are not notified quickly enough our ability to assist is diminished but I will make contact with CMS again about your ticket. As previously stated the intention of this parking arrangement is not to penalise residents. It is not our intention to see residents inconvenienced. Once I have a resolution on your ticket I will contact you again.

    With regards to your issues around CMS office location and not displaying their new address on their tickets or using incorrectly located signage I am uncertain on how material this is, but I have asked CMS to respond to me on this matter. Clearly, we want CMS to be working within any regulations in place so that they are able to enforce any tickets they issue to uphold the credibility of the scheme.


    There are undoubtedly two separate car-parks at Winifride Court but our expectation would be that CMS patrol them as one single scheme as we do not advise residents at Winifride Court which of the two car parks they should use. Indeed we have recently introduced a pathway making it easier for residents to access both car-parks from either side of the development.

    Once I have heard back from CMS I will contact you again and I am happy to visit you if you would like to discuss this further.

    Yours sincerely


    Housing Services Manager
    Last edited by Scrumpy11; 13-04-2019 at 3:14 PM.
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