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  • FIRST POST
    • familyguy321
    • By familyguy321 5th Apr 19, 10:00 AM
    • 116Posts
    • 33Thanks
    familyguy321
    Fine for entering wrong vehicle reg
    • #1
    • 5th Apr 19, 10:00 AM
    Fine for entering wrong vehicle reg 5th Apr 19 at 10:00 AM
    Hi all,

    As the registered keeper (RK), my mum has received a parking charge notice from a PPC for allegedly 'no payment/ticket'. The driver is adamant that payment was made and that the registration plate may have been entered incorrectly. The RK is determined to fight the charge. Unfortunately, the RK is not able to produce the parking ticket as evidence.

    I intend to visit the car park this weekend to take pictures of signs. Could someone advise:

    1. What should I look for specifically with the signs?

    2. Would it be worth asking the PPC to provide a record of all number plates that were entered in the time period the vehicle was in the car park?

    3. Anything else that can help appeal the charge?

    Any help would be much appreciated.

    Regards,
    FG
Page 2
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 10th Apr 19, 8:13 AM
    • 13,429 Posts
    • 13,774 Thanks
    The Deep
    It is always worth appealing, it may save you money, and it will cost them money. They have so many hoops to jump through that is likely that they will fail one. Besides the Law is on their tail.

    Get your MP on board, they are totally on your side.

    On 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these private parking companies. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, and persistent offenders denied access. Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers.

    Until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

    Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • familyguy321
    • By familyguy321 10th Apr 19, 8:23 AM
    • 116 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    familyguy321
    Thank you The Deep. Is there a template I can use for the complaint to MP?
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 10th Apr 19, 8:39 AM
    • 13,429 Posts
    • 13,774 Thanks
    The Deep
    No, but here is one I did earlier.

    I regret that I have to trouble you again but I wish to obtain your help in seeking the cancellation of a Parking Charge Notice, aka as an invoice, issued by Parking Eye at ASDA, Tilehurst, on 2nd April 2019.

    You are no doubt familiar with The Parking (Code of Practice ) Bill which received Royal Assent on 15th March this year. The bill was enacted to regulate the excesses of Private Parking companies.

    I have received an invoice as registered keeper, (I was not the driver), for the alleged damage the driver caused Parking Eye by staying for 20 minutes over the arbitrary time allowed by the alleged contract they claim the driver had agreed to.

    I attach a copy of that sign which they allege forms the contract. For your information, the driver was shopping for the entire period, and purchased 26 items.

    IMO, the sign is not fit for purpose. It is at least six feet above the ground, and the terms and conditions, which are in the smallest print, comprise over 300 words. This, one is supposed to read and digest before parking one's car.

    I should be grateful if you would take whatever action you consider appropriate.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • familyguy321
    • By familyguy321 10th Apr 19, 12:08 PM
    • 116 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    familyguy321
    That's perfect, thanks. I noticed you made reference to the sign not being fit for purpose. Are the signs I posted images of all compliant?
    • MistyZ
    • By MistyZ 10th Apr 19, 12:20 PM
    • 628 Posts
    • 1,179 Thanks
    MistyZ
    Can anyone advise if it's still worth appealing this PCN? The driver definitely paid to park for 1 hour but cannot remember what they entered on the machine.

    Is there anything on the car park signs that are grounds for appeal?

    Today is the last day for paying the reduced charge of 60.

    FG
    Originally posted by familyguy321
    As Coupon-mad said, you will be looking for a 'near miss' with the car's registration. Does the driver think they had the correct vehicle's number plate in mind when attempting to enter it? If so, you'd expect the registration entered to be close.

    Those signs are mightily confusing and the machine is dreadful ... count the icons! And I wouldn't trust that keypad at all .... the plastic covering tends to harden and entering numbers on these things requires a fair bit of concentration and coordination.

    Fight on, why not?
    • familyguy321
    • By familyguy321 10th Apr 19, 12:33 PM
    • 116 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    familyguy321
    Hi MistyZ,

    Thanks for the feedback.

    The driver is having trouble remembering what was entered. They do recall having the registration in mind but can't remember how much of it they entered. They are certain that the ticket came out the machine before they could finish entering the reg. and they have a vague recollection of only the letter 'H' being on the ticket.

    With regards to the signage, which specific bits would you say are confusing? Is it that their terms and conditions do not specify what a 'valid ticket' is?

    I want to fight on, but I am trying to weigh up paying 60 today to the time it will take to fight with little evidence. I am relying on the PPC providing accurate data to prove the mismatch.

    FG
    • Wiganer78
    • By Wiganer78 10th Apr 19, 12:50 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    Wiganer78
    Done same thing put wrong reg into the gym system !!!!!!!!,put my wife's ref instead of mone.now dept agency are ringing me for payment
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 10th Apr 19, 1:47 PM
    • 13,429 Posts
    • 13,774 Thanks
    The Deep
    That's perfect, thanks. I noticed you made reference to the sign not being fit for purpose. Are the signs I posted images of all compliant?
    Originally posted by familyguy321

    That is something you should be able to do yourself
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • familyguy321
    • By familyguy321 10th Apr 19, 2:06 PM
    • 116 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    familyguy321
    Sorry for my ignorance, but how do I check if they are compliant? Are there specific standards?
    • MistyZ
    • By MistyZ 10th Apr 19, 3:42 PM
    • 628 Posts
    • 1,179 Thanks
    MistyZ
    Sorry for my ignorance, but how do I check if they are compliant? Are there specific standards?
    Originally posted by familyguy321
    Go to the Newbies' thread and scroll down to 'SECOND STAGE APPEAL - POPLA OR IAS'. There you will find a sub-section on 'signage'. There are links and links within the links - it's a good education on the signage front!

    Take a good look at the photos yourself, possibly trying to imagine things from an older person's point of view if the driver is fairly elderly. After a while the penny drops that these signs are not exactly designed or placed to enlighten motorists. And that's when you start to feel you can do a POPLA appeal with confidence.

    There are other POPLA points which may prove more useful than you'd think .... e.g. 'no landowner authority'. Quite a few car parks are operating despite inadequate or even, sometimes, non-existent contracts with landowners.

    And POPLA is basically a cut & paste job with the addition of a lot of informed tweaking to fit the circumstances.
    • familyguy321
    • By familyguy321 10th Apr 19, 3:58 PM
    • 116 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    familyguy321
    Thanks MistyZ. I will start educating myself in preparation for step 4 below.

    1. Today: Send SAR request via email to OPS data protection officer today
    2. Tomorrow: Visit car park and take photos of warnings signs and instructions of PDT machine

    3. Day 26: submit appeal via email to OPS
    4. x number of days after appeal: Receive rejection from OPS and submit appeal to POPLA on the basis of data from SAR (which should have arrived by now) and non-compliant signage.

    Thanks for giving me the confidence to fight the PCN.

    FG
    • familyguy321
    • By familyguy321 19th Apr 19, 5:27 PM
    • 116 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    familyguy321
    Hi all,

    The RK has not received a response to the SAR and 28 day limit for appeal is coming up shortly. I have drafted the email below - could some review and suggest any amendments?


    Dear Sir or Madam,

    Ticket number: XXXXXXX
    Vehicle registration number: XXXXXXX

    You issued me with a parking ticket on 27/03/2019 that I believe it was unfairly issued. I decline your invitation to name the driver, which is not required of me as the keeper of the vehicle. I will not be paying your demand for payment for the following reasons:
    • The alleged contravention did not occur
    Quite simply, payment was made for the parking and the charge should be waived. It is possible that the vehicle registration number was not fully entered and therefore the payment was not matched to the vehicle. This can be seen if you cross-reference payments made during the time the vehicle entered and exited the car park.
    If you choose to pursue me please be aware that I will not enter into any correspondence and this will be the only email you will receive from me.

    Yours faithfully,
    [registered keeper name]
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 19th Apr 19, 5:34 PM
    • 15,201 Posts
    • 17,688 Thanks
    KeithP
    The first two replies you received on this thread suggested you send the template appeal.

    What you have just shown us is not the template appeal found in post #1 of the NEWBIES thread.

    In the first response you received Umkomaas said:
    The NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #1 tells you exactly how to appeal this, including a ready written template for your use (unaltered).
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    Last edited by KeithP; 19-04-2019 at 5:37 PM.
    .
    • familyguy321
    • By familyguy321 19th Apr 19, 5:45 PM
    • 116 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    familyguy321
    The first two replies you received on this thread suggested you send the template appeal.

    What you have just shown us is not the template appeal found in post #1 of the NEWBIES thread.

    In the first response you received Umkomaas said:
    Originally posted by KeithP
    KeithP, apologies I completely missed that. I've re-drafted my appeal:

    Re PCN number: xxxxxx

    I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a formal complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner and to my MP.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. Since your PCN is a vague template, I require ALL photos taken and an explanation of the allegation and your evidence, i.e.:

    - If the allegation concerns a PDT machine, the data supplied in response to this appeal must include the record of payments made - showing partial VRNs - and an explanation of the reason for the PCN, because your Notice does not explain it.

    - you must include a close up actual photograph of the sign you contend was at the location on the material date.

    Formal note:
    Should you later pursue this charge by way of litigation, note that service of any legal documents by email is expressly disallowed and you are not entitled to assume that the data in this dispute/appeal remains the current address for service in the future.

    Yours faithfully,
    [RK name]
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 19th Apr 19, 6:22 PM
    • 15,201 Posts
    • 17,688 Thanks
    KeithP
    If that's the blue template from post #1 of the NEWBIES thread, then send it.
    .
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Apr 19, 6:24 PM
    • 73,322 Posts
    • 85,421 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    There is no need to ever repeat the forum template appeal here.

    And stop looking at the MSE article & their awful template appeal that misses the entire point and costs people money.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • familyguy321
    • By familyguy321 16th May 19, 12:57 PM
    • 116 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    familyguy321
    Update

    I have finally received a response from OPS with regards to my Subject Access Request. I will reproduce what they have sent and I've added my questions in the next post.

    Firstly, this was their email reply:

    Dear <RK name>,

    Please find attached the information you have requested.
    Your parking charge was processed by ZZPS on behalf of One Parking Solution Ltd.
    The keeper details were provided by the DVLA.
    With regards the data from the PDT, your vehicle registration number does not feature in the report and therefore the redacted file is blank.
    There are no automated decisions being made about you.
    If there is anything else we can do for you, please let us know.

    Kind regards,
    One Parking Solution Ltd
    There are 4 attachments, beginning with a screenshot of the PDT machine report which shows no records against the VRM. The next attachment is a letter from ZZPS in response to the SAR:

    Dear xxxxx

    Our reference: xxxxxxx
    Vehicle Registration Mark “VRM”: xxxx xxx

    From your correspondence, we understand your request is;
    “1. Please confirm to me whether or not my personal data is being processed. If it is, please provide me with the categories of personal data you have about me in your files and databases.
    2. Please provide me with any images you hold of my vehicle entering and leaving GS Car Park, Mansfield Street, Leicester, LE1 3DL on 22 March 2019.
    3. Please provide me with a redacted copy of any records from the PDT machines within GS Car Park, Mansfield Street, Leicester, LE1 3DL on 22 March 2019 between the time my vehicle entered and exited the car park.
    4. If you are additionally collecting personal data about me from any source other than me, please provide me with all information about their source, as referred to in Article 14 of the GDPR.
    5. If you are making automated decisions about me, including profiling, whether or not on the basis of Article 22 of the GDPR, please provide me with information concerning the basis for the logic in making such automated decisions, and the significance and consequences of such processing.”


    By way of an explanation, ZZPS Limited is a Notice Processing company which specialises in the recovery of outstanding Parking Charge/Penalty Notices issued on private land. PCN Admin Centre and www.iPayMyPCN.net are trading styles of ZZPS Limited.

    Your data has been processed for the purpose of collecting the balance of a Parking Charge Notice “PCN” issued by our client, One Parking Solution Limited.

    Our client issued the original PCN to the registered keeper of the above-mentioned vehicle by requesting the details of the keeper from the DVLA. Once the keeper’s details had been received by our client, the details of your notice was passed securely to us via a Secure File Transfer Protocol “SFTP” so that we could send you the notice and begin the recovery process for the outstanding balance. The date your information was passed to us was 26/03/2019. The information shared with us relating to your Personally Identifiable Information “PII” is as follows

    • Your name, your address, your VRM, and your PCN number.

    The personal data held on our system is as follows;
    Name – <RK name>
    Address – <RK address>
    VRM – <VRM>
    Email – <email>
    Phone – <number>

    In response to your request, we will answer each point as you have raised it;
    1. Yes, your data is being processed – the categories of which have already been listed above.
    2. Please see below.
    3. Our client, One Parking Solution Ltd will be able to respond to this point; as we do not have access to the payment machines we cannot provide this to you.
    4. Your data has been requested from the DVLA and provided to us by our client – other than this, you have been the only one to provide data relating to you, to us.
    5. There have been no automated decisions about you specifically; there is an automated process when it comes to processing a Parking Charge Notice, however, this is not specific to you.

    --------------------------------------

    Your data has been shared with APS Group Secure Solutions Limited for the outsourcing of printing via SFTP. The PII shared with the APS Group is as follows;
    • • Your first and last name, your address, VRM, PCN number, and your ZZPS reference number.

    As part of the collection process, your data may be shared with a firm of Solicitors if the matter remains unresolved; this is advised on our letters. The PII shared with the solicitors is as follows;
    • • Your first and last name, address, VRM, PCN number, your ZZPS reference number, and any information noted on our system which includes contact from you directly as well as notes relating to the progression of this notice.

    Our retention period is in keeping with current legislation whereby the default retention period is, currently, 6 years after the last date of entry to an account.
    As the data subject, you have the right to request rectification or erasure of your personal data or restriction of processing of personal data concerning you or to object to such processing.
    You also have the right to lodge a complaint with the Information Commissioner’s Office “ICO”, and if you so choose, you may seek to enforce this right through a judicial remedy.
    All data listed has been provided to us by our client and/or you, the data subject. We have not been provided any data pertaining to you by any other party.
    Any further requests for copies of information can be made, however, please be advised we are able to charge a reasonable fee for the administrative costs incurred as per the GDPR Art.15 (3)(2).

    This concludes your Subject Access Request “SAR” and we trust this satisfies your request.

    Yours sincerely,
    DATA PROTECTION DEPARTMENT
    ZZPS Limited
    At the bottom of the letter, there are 2 timestamped photos showing the vehicle entering and leaving the car park. Total time between the 2 photos is 37 minutes. The remaining 2 attachments are a copy of the PCN and a Case History Report detailing the history of the notice during its time on their system.

    Please see below post for my notes and questions.
    Last edited by familyguy321; 16-05-2019 at 1:01 PM.
    • familyguy321
    • By familyguy321 16th May 19, 12:59 PM
    • 116 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    familyguy321
    My notes and questions:

    I am not surprised that there were no records against the VRM and this is not what was asked for. My request to them was:

    3. Please provide me with a redacted copy of any records from the PDT machines within GS Car Park, Mansfield Street, Leicester, LE1 3DL on 22 March 2019 between the time my vehicle entered and exited the car park.

    Q: how I make it more clear to them that I need redacted copy of all records?

    The ZZPS letter states that OPS requested the keeper details from DVLA and passed this information to ZZPS on 26/03/2019 via SFTP. However, on the ZZPS case history report the first line is a ‘New Home Address from DVLA Kadoe Enquiry on 27/03/2019.

    Q: Does this mean ZZPS are telling lies and it was actually them who requested RK details from DVLA? Also the dates don’t match between the letter and case history report

    Lastly, is there anything else in their response that stands out as being odd?

    Thanks in advance,
    FG
    Last edited by familyguy321; 16-05-2019 at 1:02 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th May 19, 1:13 PM
    • 73,322 Posts
    • 85,421 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    3. Please provide me with a redacted copy of any records from the PDT machines within GS Car Park, Mansfield Street, Leicester, LE1 3DL on 22 March 2019 between the time my vehicle entered and exited the car park.

    Q: how I make it more clear to them that I need redacted copy of all records?
    Give them a clue what you are looking for - I haven't checked your earlier posts but are you looking for a payment the driver made against their own car instead, by mistake, or a possible single digit VRN typo? If so, spell out that the payment made that is your data, is the one made around x minutes after driving in, and it was 2.50 (or whatever) and the VRN will be a close match to xxx xxxx and is indisputably your payment, therefore your data, and you will complain to the ICO if OPS do not produce a report showing that payment record, which clearly does not relate to any other vehicle that drove in that day.

    The ZZPS letter states that OPS requested the keeper details from DVLA and passed this information to ZZPS on 26/03/2019 via SFTP. However, on the ZZPS case history report the first line is a ‘New Home Address from DVLA Kadoe Enquiry on 27/03/2019.

    Q: Does this mean ZZPS are telling lies and it was actually them who requested RK details from DVLA? Also the dates don’t match between the letter and case history report
    I think ZZPS do OPS' back office work for them so yes it was probably ZZPS. It's not a big deal but you can ask for things like that, and dates, to be clarified.

    Lastly, is there anything else in their response that stands out as being odd?
    Nope, OPS and ZZPS just are 'odd'!

    Keep an eye on day 26 for appealing, and don't imply who was driving in any comms (so no typing 'show me the data for the VRN I entered in error'!).
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • familyguy321
    • By familyguy321 17th May 19, 9:02 AM
    • 116 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    familyguy321
    HI Coupon-Mad,

    Thanks for the quick response!

    Give them a clue what you are looking for - I haven't checked your earlier posts but are you looking for a payment the driver made against their own car instead, by mistake, or a possible single digit VRN typo? If so, spell out that the payment made that is your data, is the one made around x minutes after driving in, and it was 2.50 (or whatever) and the VRN will be a close match to xxx xxxx and is indisputably your payment, therefore your data, and you will complain to the ICO if OPS do not produce a report showing that payment record, which clearly does not relate to any other vehicle that drove in that day.
    We're looking for a payment of 1.30 made with just 1 or 2 characters entered (the PDT machine is very confusing as can be seen in Post 17). Not sure which characters of the VRN were entered. Does this sound ok:

    For the attention of the Data Protection Officer,

    Thank you for the information provided. With regards the data from your PDT machine, this has not been produced in line with original request.

    For clarity, could you please provide me with a redacted copy of any records from the PDT machines within GS Car Park, Mansfield Street, Leicester, LE1 3DL on 22 March 2019 between 16:23 and 16:40. The records should show the amount payment paid and first 4 characters of VRN entered.


    I think ZZPS do OPS' back office work for them so yes it was probably ZZPS. It's not a big deal but you can ask for things like that, and dates, to be clarified
    I will add this to the email above:

    Additionally, I note the letter from ZZPS states that you requested the keeper details from DVLA and passed this information to ZZPS on 26/03/2019 via SFTP. However, on the ZZPS case history report the first line is a ‘New Home Address from DVLA Kadoe Enquiry' on 27/03/2019. Could you confirm who made requested my personal information from DVLA?

    Nope, OPS and ZZPS just are 'odd'!

    Keep an eye on day 26 for appealing, and don't imply who was driving in any comms (so no typing 'show me the data for the VRN I entered in error'!).
    Day 26 has already passed and appeal was made on that date. In fact, the RK received the rejection through the post today. What's the next steps with that?

    Thanks again for the response and help,
    FG
    Last edited by familyguy321; 30-05-2019 at 1:29 PM.
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