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  • FIRST POST
    incogni2
    Mortgage payment difficulty advice
    • #1
    • 28th Jan 09, 1:50 AM
    Mortgage payment difficulty advice 28th Jan 09 at 1:50 AM
    Hi,

    We took out a mortgage for £236,099 with Nationwide in June 2008. The mortgage is over 25 years, fixed for 5 years at 6.23%; 95% LTV (i.e. 5% deposit). The current monthly payment is £1554.56 per month.

    This means that we have made 7 payments so far, totalling £11,947.55 (due to a higher first payment than the standard) of which £9458.22 has been interest, leaving a balance of £233,609.67. (So little paid toward the capital!)

    My wife is in regular employment at approximately £45,000 per year. I work through my own limited company (basically a one-man consultancy vehicle) and our accountant certified my earnings as £15,000 per annum (which, at the time, I viewed as remarkably stingy but now looks worryingly optimistic). Anyway, we were confident that we could meet the repayments even though it was a 50% increase over what we were paying as rent.

    Unfortunately, though my wifeís job remains as stable as ever (and is almost certain to continue to do so), I have been unable to find further work since my last contract ended in October. In reality, I grossly underestimated the worsening economic and employment situations. I felt that because I had always found it relatively easy to find work in the past and with a strong client-base, there was little reason why I couldnít continue to do so. Even if the opportunities were to diminish, they surely wouldnít dry up entirely!

    My wife reckons that we are currently living at about £700 per month beyond our means (financed almost entirely from credit) and obviously some radical cost-cutting surgery is imminent. I was hopeful, having read about a new attitude from lenders toward borrowers in difficulty, that we might be allowed to shift to interest-only payments for a few months which, coupled with substantial personal economies, might allow us to at least break-even while I track down a job.

    We spoke to Nationwide and, firstly, we canít go interest-only (due to a high LTV and other more technical reasons). However, we can ask for a ďconcessionĒ. Basically, this would be a continued reduction in the monthly payment for an agreed period. So far, so rosy. If we complete and return an account of our expenditure, they will consider the concession. However, if at any point the total, rolling concession adds up to the same amount as our standard monthly payment then it will be recorded on our credit files as arrears. Lastly, once the concession period has ended, the amount conceded must be repaid again to an agreed schedule (6-12 months was suggested).

    This appears to mean that we could ask for a £500 per month reduction for 3 months without arrears being recorded (and have to pay back the £1500 thereby Ďlostí to the lender over the following 6-12 months) or, equally, a £250 per month reduction over 6 months.

    Iím assuming the arrears being recorded on our credit files is not a good thing? (And such a strong negative would be like torture, albeit a mild form, given the effort spent correcting the data before we applied for the mortgage in the first place.)

    Even if I get a contract, I probably wonít see actual cash for two months, so the first option would only give me about a monthís clearance. The second option might be more realistic but £250 per month doesnít seem like enough of a reduction to enable our credit cards to stop flexing (our current utilisation is around 50% but only because the damn companies keep putting the limits up whenever they are approached). What happens if I still donít find work Ė do I just plunge into arrears hell? Certainly, Iíd expect to find work soon but, given that previously I expected to find it instantly, I not currently keen to rely solely on my judgement.

    Clearly Iíve rambled on here and not asked many questions but I just wondered if anyone had any views as to the leniency and suitability of the lenderís solution and the possible credit-worthiness related effects?

    Thanks.
Page 7
  • opinions4u
    For the want of wishing to be more constructive I can only find limited words.

    You are a plonker.

    I really regret my lack of control in posting that.
    Last edited by opinions4u; 01-02-2009 at 5:37 PM.
    • silvercar
    • By silvercar 1st Feb 09, 5:40 PM
    • 39,806 Posts
    • 164,165 Thanks
    silvercar
    It is obvious that the work/ home lifestyle balance is important to you.

    That either means working harder / better to get more money or reducing your spending.
  • beecher
    Because I don't think that it is a simple as me being right and you all being wrong, or the other way around.

    I consider that there are multiple perspectives on the relationship between risk and reward that I have been trying (though obviously failing) to express. I agree entirely, that from a cautious and risk averse direction, the vast majority of the advice presented must be de facto correct. But I donít agree that the opinions expressed represent the sum total of all possible accurate counsel. I believe that had I posted elsewhere (and the hint that this forum is concerned primarily with the saving of money is embodied in the URL, no?) that I might have received different yet equally valid responses.
    Originally posted by incogni2
    I think you should spend less time trying to justify yourself and your actions, and more time learning how to survive on the equivalent of 18k after mortgage payments. Plenty of us do it, and I think you should join the real world. Alternatively you could just post somewhere else as you're clearly not getting the validation you seem to need.
  • incogni2
    Some of this response is an extension of mine to silvercar above but I decided to place it here.

    can I ask what you are hoping to achieve by posting on this thread?


    I would agree that it was a mistake. I lurked for a while (indeed I lurked silently while buying the property originally) and felt that despite the title/URL, it did not necessarily represent an anti-debt cartel. To be honest, all I wanted was to get some fairly simple advice regarding my mortgage and the options the lender had provided me with. Nothing more nothing less.

    You've received advice which you've dismissed, which is of course your choice.


    If arguing counter to the prevailing view, or even playing devilís advocate in order to gain a deeper understanding of the issues involved, is dismissal then that is true. The truth is that I will implement some of the advice but not all of it (perhaps even only a minority of it but still more than none). That is my choice, as you say, despite the fact that some posters (a minority) donít appear to believe in choice Ė or assert that some choices, if freely made but not of their liking, characterise me irrevocably as either a fool or a knave.

    But why keep coming back, and why keep focusing on topics which are nothing to do with saving money?


    Because there were a number of responses which I felt deserved a reply which also had little or nothing to do with saving money. I do not accept that I have posted anything that when off-topic was not a direct response to an equally off-topic post. As I said earlier, from the narrow definition of what I had hoped for (and I accept the right of others to expand the focus of discussion), virtually every post has been at odds with my intention. Perhaps it was my responsibility to ignore the increasingly tangential nature of some discussion for which, if it was, I am sorry.


    I genuinely don't understand why you would waste time on posting here when you have zero intention of acting on any of the advice you're given.


    Well, again, I donít accept that I have ďzero intentionĒ. Zero is an extreme and almost everything Iíve tried to state has been in objection to this extreme. I have said using previous posts and repeated in this one, that I really appreciate all advice (especially when given from a non-absolutist moral perspective) and I will go away, sift the advice and determine for myself what I want to do and what I hope to achieve. I can continue to eschew the one size fits all solution, yet still draw some value from what has been said.

    Perhaps posting has been a waste of time, but for every poster there are many people who have simply viewed (and read) the thread. Now, it may be that all of them, without exception, agrees with the homogeneity of the response I have received but there may be others who donít. Perhaps not everyone is super-saver material; perhaps not everyone, even amongst those who linger silently here, wants to be. I want the orthodoxy not to be everything and I wish that challenging that was met with less hostility. I would like to think that other people out there who are like me (and there must be a few!) Ė those who might be in the real, instant, screaming crisis kind of trouble that I do not appreciate that I am in Ė could post here and get the advice they need. But, ultimately, I have failed to do that and I think that some, just a few, may drop through the cracks because of it. Perhaps that is hubris; I really hope so because, if not, what is the purpose of this place?
    • Blunty
    • By Blunty 1st Feb 09, 6:09 PM
    • 33 Posts
    • 26 Thanks
    Blunty
    But I donít agree that the opinions expressed represent the sum total of all possible accurate counsel. I believe that had I posted elsewhere (and the hint that this forum is concerned primarily with the saving of money is embodied in the URL, no?) that I might have received different yet equally valid responses.
    Originally posted by incogni2
    As you're looking for the widest possible counsel, have you thought about going for the "!!!! or bust!" approach?

    Anyone who equates the chances of getting out of your position with the chances of winning the National Lottery must need some help.

    If you've got a free afternoon, make an appointment with your local CAB, and chat through your options with them.

    Good luck.
    Debt free since September 08
    • mikeopvc
    • By mikeopvc 1st Feb 09, 6:32 PM
    • 903 Posts
    • 132 Thanks
    mikeopvc
    incogni2 I think you need to wake up and smell the coffee, you seem more intent on snapping back at the posters in this thread than anything else.
    These people are trying to offer what advice they can and when you see a post with something like:

    Are you going to get out and get a job stacking shelves, working in a bar etc etc ?
    your response is

    No, I'm not.

    well your attitude stinks in my opinion, I mean what's wrong with stacking shelves or working in a bar in order to make ends meet, us normal folk would do anything to keep our home but you won't make any sacrafices at all.
    Your wife must be very understanding I must say because mine would have told me by now to:

    "get off your backside and earn some money"

    and that my friend is the best advice I can give to you

  • incogni2
    you seem more intent on snapping back at the posters in this thread than anything else.
    Originally posted by mikeopvc
    I've only snapped back at Spartacus and I think he can take it.

    These people are trying to offer what advice they can and when you see a post with something like:
    The quote you use is from a Spartacus post, I responded in the fashion you describe because of his previous posts.


    Are you going to get out and get a job stacking shelves, working in a bar etc etc ?
    your response is

    No, I'm not.

    well your attitude stinks in my opinion, I mean what's wrong with stacking shelves or working in a bar in order to make ends meet
    It is just a straight-forward, simple response to the question.

    I have never suggested that there is anything wrong with such employment. I the past, I have worked in plenty of bars. That doesn't mean that it is the right move for me at the moment. In previous post, I said that I have the option of extending my search and taking on a much longer potential commute. There are options and the longer commute is my current preference. That isn't meant to disparage or devalue the type of work suggested, it is just my choice.
  • incogni2
    I think you should spend less time trying to justify yourself and your actions,
    Originally posted by beecher
    When people stop asking for justification then I will stop trying to justify. Seriously, if you don't want me to respond, then don't post on the thread.

    Plenty of us do it, and I think you should join the real world.
    I'm sure you do. Many people survive on very little money (or a quite reasonable amount in the case of the figure stated). My parent survive entirely on their fairly meagre pensions. I understand that you think I should join the real world but (probably due to being an imbecile, as stated above), I'm just not that keen.

    Alternatively you could just post somewhere else as you're clearly not getting the validation you seem to need.
    If I were that needy, I don't think I'd still be posting here! Message understood however - once this post is dead, I will move on.
  • incogni2
    It is obvious that the work/ home lifestyle balance is important to you.

    That either means working harder / better to get more money or reducing your spending.
    Originally posted by silvercar
    Well, I guess that the balance is important - is it not to everyone?

    I think that it just means working more (or reducing spending).
  • seraphina
    I don't know why I'm bothering to post this because you won't take any notice of me.

    Stop arguing with people, and start doing something to help you and your family. You can justify your actions until the cows come home but I think we'll see your wife posting on DFW in 6-9 months wondering how to stave off repossession/deal with a husband who is incapable of spending within his means and won't take responsibility for his actions.

    Of course, it's up to you. I hope I'm wrong about the above. Maybe you'll get lucky and a fab contract will come in so you can massage your ego in the comfort of your own home, whilst watching your sky and smoking your tabs. But I doubt it.

    Just make sure your fish go to a good home when the (almost) inevitable happens.
  • beecher
    When people stop asking for justification then I will stop trying to justify. Seriously, if you don't want me to respond, then don't post on the thread.
    Originally posted by incogni2
    I have time to post on these boards as I'm in work, and not in a pretty desperate situation. I honestly don't understand why you spend time on here when you could be sorting out a Statement of Affairs and getting the advice you need on the Debt Free Wannabee forums.

    You say you're 'just not that keen' to join the real world, which I think sums the whole thread up to be honest.
  • incogni2
    Lower, you earn nothing my friend.
    Originally posted by Spartacus_Mills
    Is your transparent dislike related to my earning or my spending (to the extent that they can be separated)? If I was working in a bar, would my wife (on her much higher wage) still be 'keeping' me?

    Everyone seems to have their opinion as what my wife should be saying/doing. She, however, is capable of making up her own mind.
  • incogni2
    deal with a husband who is incapable of spending within his means and won't take responsibility for his actions.
    Originally posted by seraphina
    Are we not both failing to spend within our means? It is my responsibility to find work (because I currently have none) but don't we share responsibility for the spending decisions that are being made in the current situation?
  • seraphina
    Are we not both failing to spend within our means? It is my responsibility to find work (because I currently have none) but don't we share responsibility for the spending decisions that are being made in the current situation?
    Originally posted by incogni2
    Yes, it's a joint responsibility - but this isn't about your wife's spending or whatever, it's about you thinking that spending nearly £50/month on Sky is acceptable when you are £700 down a month and unemployed. Who knows what your wife is spending or not spending - that's not detailed by you in your posts, and this thread isn't about that. It's about what your contribution can be to the joint problem of a £700/month hole in your finances. And at the moment, it's not much. It's not about whether it's acceptable to rely on a partner to help support you.

    Look, you are not smarter than everyone else, no matter how much time you spend trying to look clever on internet forums. If you were so smart, you wouldn't be in this mess. You are *just like everyone else* who is struggling with money. You are not a special case, you are just like everyone else who has just been made redundant or can't find work. That means everyone's (well meaning) advice applies to YOU and your situation. It means that any income in your situation is better than no income. It means that the Sky goes. Just because you spend your days recompiling kernels, depositing on Sourceforge or being some l33t hacker d00d doesn't mean that you are exempted from the normal laws of money - spend too much and you'll be left with nothing.
  • iB1
    Are you autistic or do you have aspergers? I just wonder from your posting style. I had an ex-colleague at work who was very similar - drilling down and down and down into unnecessary detail and off on random tangents. I'm just asking because I'm trying to find if there's a reason why you're being so obtuse
  • barnaby-bear
    Well, I guess that the balance is important - is it not to everyone?

    I think that it just means working more (or reducing spending).
    Originally posted by incogni2
    But you are working LESS. The fundamental issue is you don't have the salary anymore to maintain the mortgage and the lifestyle. In this economic climate the chances of you earning more or getting the next big contract are going down.....
  • Kez100
    Can I ask? How much do you both spend on mobile phones each month?
    Last edited by Kez100; 01-02-2009 at 8:21 PM.
  • barnaby-bear
    In the many interstices between jobs I was also contributing to open source and community projects as are (probably) 100s of thousands of others. Some open source contributors are paid to do so, some do so without financial reward in their spare time, others when they are temporarily out of work. A breakdown of these various employment statuses, and their background contribution to the infrastructure most of us use every day, would be illuminating.

    A number of you who are contractors, or your friends who are, have a day rate which is partly predicated on the efforts of these people. If you simply use the web then part of your experience is likewise as a direct result of these peoplesí efforts.

    If I am out of work for a couple more weeks then I will be releasing my own open source product/project (probably via Codeplex). It is small in scope (since it has been written in 3 months) and reasonably limited in the number of people who will find it useful. However, for those small number of people (it is targeted at an enthusiast marketplace), it will enable them to achieve something which was difficult or impossible before. Yeah, Iím sitting on my ar*e Ė guilty as charged; but lazy? I see little to justify that claim.

    (Again for those who object to tone or phraseology, I am not claiming that there is anything special about anything I personally have done or will ever do. There are umpteen programmers who are doing and will do so much more that it will render my small efforts trivial by comparison. It is just worth remembering sometimes that these people tried to give back something out of the goodness of their little hearts, or due to ideological commitment anyway. By all means, persuade them to eschew their guilty debt-building pleasures but donít kick them too hard just because they are down.)
    Originally posted by incogni2
    Hacking around on open source is all very well but it's not a job - it's a bit of fun a lot of us fit around the day job. I work in Silicon fen and it's littered with adequately qualified IT bodies convinced that a Ltd (what's that £40 to register), an ok turnover but no real salary, some expensive professional registrations etc, the chance they might be the 1:100 surprise start-up success etc.... most of these guys are single can take the punt cut back when times are hard, fly off to silicon valley if needs must, move back into a shared house for a while etc... being educated, middle class it's a business that's just slow... but realistically if you are earning below minimum wage and have a home, family to support then it's not a business it's a failing business. A decent business has high enough highs to make provisions for the more meagre times. Contracting is tough at the moment and with hiring freezes and projects postponed and no work for new upcoming hackers rates are falling.
  • incogni2
    Can I ask? How much do you both spend on mobile phones each month?
    Originally posted by Kez100
    It is in this thread somewhere but quite difficult to find. I spend £35 (approximately), it is an 18-month contract. I don't know if I can legitimately 'break' that contract somehow but I'll look into it (it probably ends in April/May).

    My wife has a Pay as you Go mobile. I don't know, at this moment, how much she spends on top ups. Not that much, since I think she only really uses it to text/call me to let me know that the train will be late or whatever.
  • incogni2
    Are you autistic or do you have aspergers? I just wonder from your posting style. I had an ex-colleague at work who was very similar - drilling down and down and down into unnecessary detail and off on random tangents. I'm just asking because I'm trying to find if there's a reason why you're being so obtuse
    Originally posted by iB1
    I don't believe so (and in the case of autism, I imagine that it would be extremely difficult for it to be concealed), though some computer programmers do seem mildly aspergic perhaps.
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