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  • FIRST POST
    • hutman
    • By hutman 11th Jan 19, 2:42 PM
    • 104Posts
    • 30Thanks
    hutman
    Dismissal - Advice needed
    • #1
    • 11th Jan 19, 2:42 PM
    Dismissal - Advice needed 11th Jan 19 at 2:42 PM
    Looking for some thoughts on dismissal from job.

    Situation:
    • Highly paid role at an small-mid sized financial services company.
    • At the end of most recent client assignment, received negative feedback from client on performance and allegedly deleting a file on shared drive.

    Employer Response:
    • Meeting proposed to get my feedback. Meeting had no subject, no mention of any disciplinary hearing, and no evidence presented.

    Meeting:
    • Employer mentions the alleged deleting of a file, catches me of guard. I had no prior knowledge with this offence that had been alleged.
    • I respond, admitting deleting a file on shared drive, but qualify that this was a folder with only my own personal files. All of them were Google search pdf and powerpoint presentations as part of independent research. In addition I offer to prove this and restore files if needed. I deny misconduct.
    • I send an email to previous client asking if they felt I had deleted something I shouldn't have. No response within one day. Work email address deleted following day so don’t know if they did reply.
    • Employer considers my response and literally minutes after calls me back in to say that it was a one off and consider it a warning. Back to normal.

    Next Day:
    • Telephone call from employer to say I have been dismissed, and no further discussion was needed. No mention of any details.

    Context/Concerns:
    • I have never been dismissed from any employment.
    • Did some research after been sucker punched and discovered none of the usual processes for dismissing an employee had been followed by employer, including providing notification of hearing, providing any written warnings, taking steps into a thorough investigation of the supposed allegations and providing evidence to employee for the wrongdoing.
    • Wrote a email letter to employer claiming id been victim of discrimination/ unfair treatment with no due process followed for dismissal and that they revoke the “misconduct” charge since it affects my future prospects. No response received.
    • Employed at company for 20 months.

    Should I hire a lawyer to clear the misconduct charge?

    Thanks
    Last edited by hutman; 11-01-2019 at 2:45 PM.
Page 1
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 11th Jan 19, 2:51 PM
    • 6,423 Posts
    • 6,801 Thanks
    Comms69
    • #2
    • 11th Jan 19, 2:51 PM
    • #2
    • 11th Jan 19, 2:51 PM
    Looking for some thoughts on dismissal from job.

    Situation:
    • Highly paid role at an small-mid sized financial services company.
    • At the end of most recent client assignment, received negative feedback from client on performance and allegedly deleting a file on shared drive.
    - Did you or didn't you? There is no allegedly.

    Employer Response:
    • Meeting proposed to get my feedback. Meeting had no subject, no mention of any disciplinary hearing, and no evidence presented.
    - irrelevant.
    Meeting:
    • Employer mentions the alleged deleting of a file, catches me of guard. I had no prior knowledge with this offence that had been alleged. - So the obvious answer is the truth. Which does not require you to be 'on guard'
    • I respond, admitting deleting a file on shared drive, but qualify that this was a folder with only my own personal files. - You have no personal files. All of them were Google search pdf and powerpoint presentations as part of independent research. In addition I offer to prove this and restore files if needed. I deny misconduct.
    • I send an email to previous client asking if they felt I had deleted something I shouldn't have. No response within one day. Work email address deleted following day so don’t know if they did reply. - Irrelevant. Why are you contacting this person?
    • Employer considers my response and literally minutes after calls me back in to say that it was a one off and consider it a warning. Back to normal. - very reasonable

    Next Day:
    • Telephone call from employer to say I have been dismissed, and no further discussion was needed. No mention of any details. - How long had you worked there?

    Context/Concerns:
    • I have never been dismissed from any employment. - irrelevant
    • Did some research after been sucker punched - stop exaggerating and discovered none of the usual processes for dismissing an employee had been followed by employer, including providing notification of hearing, providing any written warnings, taking steps into a thorough investigation of the supposed allegations and providing evidence to employee for the wrongdoing. - None of those are mandatory.
    • Wrote a email letter to employer claiming id been victim of discrimination/ unfair treatment with no due process followed for dismissal and that they revoke the “misconduct” charge since it affects my future prospects. No response received.
    • Employed at company for 20 months. - You have no rights. You can be dismissed for no reason.

    Should I hire a lawyer to clear the misconduct charge?

    Thanks
    Originally posted by hutman
    No. You should move on.
    • k3lvc
    • By k3lvc 11th Jan 19, 2:53 PM
    • 2,528 Posts
    • 4,213 Thanks
    k3lvc
    • #3
    • 11th Jan 19, 2:53 PM
    • #3
    • 11th Jan 19, 2:53 PM
    I send an email to previous client asking if they felt I had deleted something I shouldn't have. No response within one day. Work email address deleted following day so don’t know if they did reply.
    Originally posted by hutman

    You were doing fairly well until this point - this isn't the action I'd expect of a highly paid employee


    Employed at company for 20 months.
    Originally posted by hutman
    But this is the sucker punch - unless you've been discriminated against in some way then cut your losses and move on
    • London50
    • By London50 11th Jan 19, 2:58 PM
    • 1,646 Posts
    • 1,600 Thanks
    London50
    • #4
    • 11th Jan 19, 2:58 PM
    • #4
    • 11th Jan 19, 2:58 PM
    Under 2 years employment you can be dismissed for any or no reason so I do not think fighting it would be worth the cost. As long as you get any moneys {including holiday pay I am afraid that is as far as it can go.
    • hutman
    • By hutman 11th Jan 19, 4:11 PM
    • 104 Posts
    • 30 Thanks
    hutman
    • #5
    • 11th Jan 19, 4:11 PM
    • #5
    • 11th Jan 19, 4:11 PM
    thanks for the responses.

    I realise that in order to submit an unfair dismissal claim, normally two years of employment is required. However, it seems to me that none of the procedures to dismiss an employee from a workplace were followed in my example. Indeed i was let off with a verbal warning and the following day dismissed without comment. Had some of those devices such as a proper investigation been afforded to me, i could have challenged the misconduct charge at the very least and come to an agreement to leave mutually. To be clear, i want to challenge the misconduct charge and do not wish for any money or other extras from taking a legal route.

    Anybody have any thoughts on this or can support my argument?
    • LilElvis
    • By LilElvis 11th Jan 19, 4:11 PM
    • 4,026 Posts
    • 10,845 Thanks
    LilElvis
    • #6
    • 11th Jan 19, 4:11 PM
    • #6
    • 11th Jan 19, 4:11 PM
    A few points:

    You appear to be concentrating on the fact that you deleted files from a shared drive and have glossed over the fact that the client also complained about your performance. Surely this will have been a major contributing factor in your employer's decision to dismiss you.

    You have acted in an unprofessional way by creating/ storing/ deleting personal files on a drive shared with your client. Would they be able to evidence that any of these personal files were either created or accessed by you during working hours - i.e. on their time?

    It was also extremely unprofessional of you to have contacted the client after the issues regarding these files were raised with you by your employer. They may not have replied to you but may well have raised this communication with your employer.

    In what way do you perceive that you have been a victim of discrimination? Has your employer treated you differently because of your race, sex or other protected characteristic? Or are you just clutching at straws rather than acknowledging that your own actions and poor performance have lead to your dismissal?
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 11th Jan 19, 4:14 PM
    • 6,423 Posts
    • 6,801 Thanks
    Comms69
    • #7
    • 11th Jan 19, 4:14 PM
    • #7
    • 11th Jan 19, 4:14 PM
    thanks for the responses.

    I realise that in order to submit an unfair dismissal claim, normally two years of employment is required. However, it seems to me that none of the procedures to dismiss an employee from a workplace were followed in my example. Indeed i was let off with a verbal warning and the following day dismissed without comment. Had some of those devices such as a proper investigation been afforded to me, i could have challenged the misconduct charge at the very least and come to an agreement to leave mutually. To be clear, i want to challenge the misconduct charge and do not wish for any money or other extras from taking a legal route.

    Anybody have any thoughts on this or can support my argument?
    Originally posted by hutman


    They didn't sack you because of the misconduct, you got a verbal warning for that.


    They sacked you because they could, without reason.


    There is no misconduct charge, you cannot challenge anything.
    • antrobus
    • By antrobus 11th Jan 19, 4:28 PM
    • 16,475 Posts
    • 23,371 Thanks
    antrobus
    • #8
    • 11th Jan 19, 4:28 PM
    • #8
    • 11th Jan 19, 4:28 PM
    thanks for the responses.

    I realise that in order to submit an unfair dismissal claim, normally two years of employment is required.
    Originally posted by hutman
    Two years of employment is required. You can't claim unfair dismissal.

    You can however claim wrongful dismissal i.e there was a breach of the employment contract, .
    https://www.curzongreen.co.uk/practice-areas/employment-law/unfair-and-constructive-wrongful-dismissal.html
    • Undervalued
    • By Undervalued 11th Jan 19, 4:29 PM
    • 3,808 Posts
    • 3,418 Thanks
    Undervalued
    • #9
    • 11th Jan 19, 4:29 PM
    • #9
    • 11th Jan 19, 4:29 PM
    thanks for the responses.

    I realise that in order to submit an unfair dismissal claim, normally two years of employment is required. However, it seems to me that none of the procedures to dismiss an employee from a workplace were followed in my example. Indeed i was let off with a verbal warning and the following day dismissed without comment. Had some of those devices such as a proper investigation been afforded to me, i could have challenged the misconduct charge at the very least and come to an agreement to leave mutually. To be clear, i want to challenge the misconduct charge and do not wish for any money or other extras from taking a legal route.

    Anybody have any thoughts on this or can support my argument?
    Originally posted by hutman
    If the procedures are contractual (big if as they are frequently not) and they failed to follow them you could theoretically make a wrongful dismissal claim (i.e breach of contract). No qualifying period.

    However the very most that would get you is a few days pay for however long it would have taken them to do it properly.
    • hutman
    • By hutman 11th Jan 19, 4:32 PM
    • 104 Posts
    • 30 Thanks
    hutman
    A few points:

    You appear to be concentrating on the fact that you deleted files from a shared drive and have glossed over the fact that the client also complained about your performance. Surely this will have been a major contributing factor in your employer's decision to dismiss you.
    Originally posted by LilElvis
    Thanks for your detailed response!

    Undoubtedly it was, you're right. But poor performance according to a client's standards is rarely a reason for dismissal, especially considering the same behaviours and ethics have been shown to gain positive client reviews at another site. Normally under such circumstances you'd be asking the employee for any training they might need.

    You have acted in an unprofessional way by creating/ storing/ deleting personal files on a drive shared with your client. Would they be able to evidence that any of these personal files were either created or accessed by you during working hours - i.e. on their time?
    Originally posted by LilElvis
    creating/ storing/ deleting - performing such actions on a shared drive is part of everyday working life. I, and other colleagues must have deleted hundreds of documents off Shared drives and SharePoint and the like. it is extremely elementary for this to be considered an act of misconduct unless the deletion was one of sensitive and private property of the client which could not be retrieved.

    It was also extremely unprofessional of you to have contacted the client after the issues regarding these files were raised with you by your employer. They may not have replied to you but may well have raised this communication with your employer.
    Originally posted by LilElvis
    Little confused on this one. Why is this unprofessional? After all if its a document which they are looking for, all I'm doing is offering to hand it back to them IF i have deleted it in the first place. My intentions were benign and trying to clear up a misunderstanding - not wriggle out of an allegation.

    Secondly, i'm beginning to doubt this was a reason at all, and actually something which has been fabricated by employer to legislate a misconduct charge.

    In what way do you perceive that you have been a victim of discrimination? Has your employer treated you differently because of your race, sex or other protected characteristic? Or are you just clutching at straws rather than acknowledging that your own actions and poor performance have lead to your dismissal?
    Originally posted by LilElvis
    The process of dismissing an employee was not afforded to me. No investigation took place. I'm happy to take ownership of the fact things didn't work out and mutually step aside. But not for misconduct.
    • hutman
    • By hutman 11th Jan 19, 4:33 PM
    • 104 Posts
    • 30 Thanks
    hutman
    If the procedures are contractual (big if as they are frequently not) and they failed to follow them you could theoretically make a wrongful dismissal claim (i.e breach of contract). No qualifying period.

    However the very most that would get you is a few days pay for however long it would have taken them to do it properly.
    Originally posted by Undervalued
    @Undervalued -Thanks for your reply.

    Does this mean, i have hope for getting the misconduct charge removed?
    Last edited by hutman; 11-01-2019 at 4:41 PM.
    • Undervalued
    • By Undervalued 11th Jan 19, 4:58 PM
    • 3,808 Posts
    • 3,418 Thanks
    Undervalued
    @Undervalued -Thanks for your reply.

    Does this mean, i have hope for getting the misconduct charge removed?
    Originally posted by hutman
    Have you been dismissed with no notice (i.e gross misconduct) or have you been given notice (or pay in lieu)?

    If it is the former you could potentially challenge the "gross" aspect as part of a wrongful dismissal claim. However all that would get you is your notice pay, it wouldn't get you any compensation for the loss of your job.

    As I said, as far as disciplinary procedures are concerned, it is rare for there to be a hard and fast contractual entitlement to them being followed.

    If you are in a regulated profession then there are special rules regarding references.

    Given that it was "well paid" I suggest you take proper legal advice.
    • robatwork
    • By robatwork 11th Jan 19, 5:12 PM
    • 4,780 Posts
    • 5,393 Thanks
    robatwork
    Just for a second put yourself in your employer's position.

    They have a senior well-paid employee that they have invested 20 months of salary and (on the job) training in. So this employee is now paying back some of the investment.

    Why would you summarily dismiss this great employee and have to go through the expense of recruiting and training someone new?
    Tell us why you think they sacked you.

    Doesn't make sense and small companies go bust quickly if they make a few stupid business decisions. I expect they think they've got this one right.
    • Diamandis
    • By Diamandis 11th Jan 19, 5:15 PM
    • 286 Posts
    • 462 Thanks
    Diamandis
    If you honestly can't understand why it's unprofessional to contact the client directly after they complained about you and your employer had to have a meeting with you about it then that's worrying.

    How do you think doing this affects your employers relationship with their client?
    • LilElvis
    • By LilElvis 11th Jan 19, 5:48 PM
    • 4,026 Posts
    • 10,845 Thanks
    LilElvis
    Thanks for your detailed response!

    Undoubtedly it was, you're right. But poor performance according to a client's standards is rarely a reason for dismissal, especially considering the same behaviours and ethics have been shown to gain positive client reviews at another site. Normally under such circumstances you'd be asking the employee for any training they might need. The client is paying your employer for the work you are providing so they are fully entitled to set whatever standard they believe to be warranted. Why should someone who has been employed in the industry for a considerable time and on a high salary require further training in order to meet either the employer's or client's expectations?



    creating/ storing/ deleting - performing such actions on a shared drive is part of everyday working life. I, and other colleagues must have deleted hundreds of documents off Shared drives and SharePoint and the like. it is extremely elementary for this to be considered an act of misconduct unless the deletion was one of sensitive and private property of the client which could not be retrieved.But it wasn't client information you stored and deleted on the drive - it was personal documents. Check your employer's policy (and those provided to you by the client) to see whether your actions constitute misconduct. In any case an employer would be justified in calling it misconduct if any personal files were created or accessed during working hours - a point you haven't answered.



    Little confused on this one. Why is this unprofessional? After all if its a document which they are looking for, all I'm doing is offering to hand it back to them IF i have deleted it in the first place. My intentions were benign and trying to clear up a misunderstanding - not wriggle out of an allegation.I would have thought this point was self-explanatory. The client contacted your employer regarding the service you supplied - it would not have been intended as a three way conversation. You shouldn't have contacted the client regarding the review without your employer's express consent.

    Secondly, i'm beginning to doubt this was a reason at all, and actually something which has been fabricated by employer to legislate a misconduct charge.If you've breached policy then it is misconduct.



    The process of dismissing an employee was not afforded to me. No investigation took place. That doesn't make it discrimination - look it up before bandying that phrase around.I'm happy to take ownership of the fact things didn't work out and mutually step aside. But not for misconduct.
    Originally posted by hutman
    See above.
    • Crazy Jamie
    • By Crazy Jamie 11th Jan 19, 6:10 PM
    • 2,160 Posts
    • 2,078 Thanks
    Crazy Jamie
    To be clear, i want to challenge the misconduct charge and do not wish for any money or other extras from taking a legal route.
    Originally posted by hutman
    In which case you need to use the company's internal appeal or grievance procedure. But, as with the dismissal itself, there is nothing to compel them to follow that process if they choose not to.

    Whilst I appreciate that you feel aggrieved by this, the unfortunate fact that you don't quite seem to be grasping is that without two years' service they can dismiss you for any reason that is not discriminatory or falls within an automatically unfair reason (there is no suggestion that either applies here) and they do not need to follow any process at all, let alone a fair one. That is the beginning and end of any issue relating to the fairness of this dismissal from a rights perspective.

    Wrongful dismissal is a little different, because that is an allegation of breach of contract. So if they dismissed you without notice, they must prove that you committed a fundamental breach of contract and, if they do not, you are entitled to your notice pay. If they did not summarily dismiss you (i.e. without notice) and have paid you your notice pay, then this also falls away.

    Undervalued's point about the disciplinary process being contractual is right, but disciplinary and grievance processes are very rarely contractual and, even if it is, you would recover very limited damages, which in practice would not make this a claim worth pursuing.
    "MIND IF I USE YOUR PHONE? IF WORD GETS OUT THAT
    I'M MISSING FIVE HUNDRED GIRLS WILL KILL THEMSELVES."
    • Masomnia
    • By Masomnia 12th Jan 19, 6:29 AM
    • 17,555 Posts
    • 39,078 Thanks
    Masomnia
    I think it's still worth checking if your disciplinary policies and procedures are contractual as a successful wrongful dismissal claim will free you from restrictive covenants, which I imagine are in your contract.
    “I could see that, if not actually disgruntled, he was far from being gruntled.” - P.G. Wodehouse
    • FBaby
    • By FBaby 12th Jan 19, 10:57 AM
    • 17,079 Posts
    • 42,017 Thanks
    FBaby
    The likely situation is that the client mattered more to them than you. They were left very unhappy, complained, told their side that you deleted a shared folder without their agreement because you were hiding something and maybe said that they were very disappointed with the company and were thinking of transferring their business or worse suing them.

    They opted for the grovelling approach, agreed, said they were sorry and reassured them that you would be dismissed and therefore would beer have to deal with you again. Maybe it was totally unfair, maybe the complaint was justify but either way, they did what they thought was best for the company and did so legally.
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