Can a shopkeeper refuse to give change?

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  • peachyprice
    peachyprice Posts: 22,346 Forumite
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    zagfles wrote: »
    No. I was thinking of scenario 3.
    Scenario 3: You go into a shop, want to buy something for £9. You only have a £10 note. The shopkeeper tells you "sorry I don't have any change". But rather than leave the item, you really want the item. So you say to the shopkeeper "I'll have it anyway" and give him the £10.

    As long as the customer is aware they won't get change, and has a choice whether to proceed with the transaction on that basis, I can't believe there's a problem.

    In that scenario it's the customer choosing that option before accepting the service, not the shopkeeper making the decision for them.
    Accept your past without regret, handle your present with confidence and face your future without fear
  • ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    ScorpiondeRooftrouser Posts: 2,851 Forumite
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    The point is that you have the option to park, go and read the signs, and then leave if you don't like it without paying anything.

    I am not sure how you could know that you don't have to pay in advance without reading the signs, and I presume that the "no change given" would be close to the sign telling you to pay when you return. Maybe not though. Doesn't matter; you still have the option to go and read the terms and conditions before leaving your car. If you choose not to take that option that's your own problem.
  • NeilCr
    NeilCr Posts: 4,430 Forumite
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    ScorpiondeRooftrouser wrote: »
    The point is that you have the option to park, go and read the signs, and then leave if you don't like it without paying anything.

    I am not sure how you could know that you don't have to pay in advance without reading the signs, and I presume that the "no change given" would be close to the sign telling you to pay when you return. Maybe not though. Doesn't matter; you still have the option to go and read the terms and conditions before leaving your car. If you choose not to take that option that's your own problem.

    Sure. I get that.

    In our car parks you pay when you get there and there are signs re no change given. The only thing I'd say is that, if you do want to use your car then there is no other, practical, option for parking. So you can be rather trapped into the no change situation.

    For me, it's no big issue. I know to have the right change available and, anyways, being an old git I have a bus pass and, from where I live, there is a good bus service. For some of our clients who have mobility problems and are, maybe, there for the first time, it's a bit different.
  • zagfles
    zagfles Posts: 20,318 Forumite
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    peachyprice wrote: »
    In that scenario it's the customer choosing that option before accepting the service, not the shopkeeper making the decision for them.
    Well obviously. I don't think anyone was envisaging the ridiculous scenario where the shopkeeper takes a note and refuses to give change without the customer being made aware that would happen!
  • Deastons
    Deastons Posts: 464 Forumite
    ScorpiondeRooftrouser wrote: »
    The point is that you have the option to park, go and read the signs, and then leave if you don't like it without paying anything.

    I am not sure how you could know that you don't have to pay in advance without reading the signs, and I presume that the "no change given" would be close to the sign telling you to pay when you return. Maybe not though. Doesn't matter; you still have the option to go and read the terms and conditions before leaving your car. If you choose not to take that option that's your own problem.

    As I've said a couple of times, there was no mention of the machine not giving change and the £3.50 minimum card payment on the tariff board. It was stuck onto the payment machine with a Dymo label. And as you have to pay after parking, there's no reason to go to the machine until you're ready to leave.

    So you're correct in that I have the option, every time I park somewhere, to go scouring the car park just in case there happens to be a small sticker somewhere with some additional terms not made clear on the tariff board, but I think most people would agree that is unreasonable.
  • zagfles
    zagfles Posts: 20,318 Forumite
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    Deastons wrote: »
    As I've said a couple of times, there was no mention of the machine not giving change and the £3.50 minimum card payment on the tariff board. It was stuck onto the payment machine with a Dymo label. And as you have to pay after parking, there's no reason to go to the machine until you're ready to leave.

    So you're correct in that I have the option, every time I park somewhere, to go scouring the car park just in case there happens to be a small sticker somewhere with some additional terms not made clear on the tariff board, but I think most people would agree that is unreasonable.
    So you have no problem with the machine not giving change, only with not being informed that the machine won't give change?

    Not what your OP implied, but I'd agree with that.
  • waamo
    waamo Posts: 10,298 Forumite
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    zagfles wrote: »
    Well obviously. I don't think anyone was envisaging the ridiculous scenario where the shopkeeper takes a note and refuses to give change without the customer being made aware that would happen!

    Indeed in my posts I believe I've made it clear the customer is aware and in agreement with the arrangement.
  • Deastons
    Deastons Posts: 464 Forumite
    edited 21 April 2018 at 7:14PM
    zagfles wrote: »
    So you have no problem with the machine not giving change, only with not being informed that the machine won't give change?

    Not what your OP implied, but I'd agree with that.

    If I'd been made aware before parking, I'd have been able to make an informed decision, check what cash I had on me and then, in this instance, likely have gone and parked elsewhere (like the free supermarket car park).

    I still think it's unfair to simply deny change when there's no practical reason (the machine is capable of calculating and dispensing change and the machine is capable of accepting card payments below £3.50).

    Taken to an extreme, what's stopping them having a sign saying "This machine only accepts £20 notes. No change given. £20 minimum card payment."
  • peachyprice
    peachyprice Posts: 22,346 Forumite
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    zagfles wrote: »
    Well obviously. I don't think anyone was envisaging the ridiculous scenario where the shopkeeper takes a note and refuses to give change without the customer being made aware that would happen!

    Yet that is exactly what happens in some car park machines!

    Why is it a ridiculous scenario for a shop but not a car park?
    Accept your past without regret, handle your present with confidence and face your future without fear
  • zagfles
    zagfles Posts: 20,318 Forumite
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    peachyprice wrote: »
    Yet that is exactly what happens in some car park machines!
    Not IME it isn't. I've used loads of "no change" car park machines, it's always been obvious, at the point you pay, that it won't give change. As it was to the OP in this case. His issue was that it wasn't obvious before he decided to use the car park.

    He didn't insert money, expect change, and not get any! He said there was a sign on the machine saying no change given.
    Why is it a ridiculous scenario for a shop but not a car park?
    Your ridiculous scenario seemed to be the shopkeep taking a note without the customer knowing that no change would be given! Even the OP's initial analogy stated "If, displayed very clearly by the till, was a sign saying "We do not give change...".

    OPs situation is similar to when our window cleaner came round a few days ago. Price £4, I only had a fiver, he didn't have change. He told me at that point. After the service had been performed. Like the OP's carpark machine told him after he'd parked.

    So exactly what the OP describes does happen when dealing with humans rather than machines.
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