Paypal Unauthorised Payment bank reversal after 11 months

Hi

I've just had an Paypal bank reversal for a transaction just under a year ago. Its just under 4 figures and naturally Paypal took the money straight out of my account. The Paypal e-mail says: 'the payment you received was reversed by the sender's bank', it is genuine as a Case has been opened against me in the Paypal resolution centre.

I shipped it by UPS and the problem is, after all this time the UPS tracking number no longer works, so I can't prove I sent or that it was delivered (although I know it was)

I do have an e-mail from the buyer via Ebay message thanking me for the delivery, and still have a copy of the UPS address label for the shipping, but with tracking no longer available, I think I'm going to be down just under 1k, as a label on it's own is no proof I sent it. I've used UPS for years via collection and drop-off and have never been given anything on paper etc to say it was sent, so I struggling with this.

Any advice?
«1

Comments

  • RFW
    RFW Posts: 10,009
    Name Dropper First Post Combo Breaker First Anniversary
    Forumite
    Contact UPS. I'd bet they hold tracking details longer than appear online. Perhaps even Paypal can access longer standing UPS tracking. I'd certainly give them the tracking if you haven't already done so. It's hardly your fault that it's timed out.

    It's going back a while but I had something similar happen and the buyer contacted me and paid. I can't remember the details but something had gone wrong with his bank account and a few Paypal chargebacks ended up happening that he couldn't stop. So worth politely contacting the buyer.
    .
  • soolin
    soolin Posts: 72,034
    Photogenic Name Dropper First Post First Anniversary
    Ambassador
    bxboards wrote: »
    Hi

    I've just had an Paypal bank reversal for a transaction just under a year ago. Its just under 4 figures and naturally Paypal took the money straight out of my account. The Paypal e-mail says: 'the payment you received was reversed by the sender's bank', it is genuine as a Case has been opened against me in the Paypal resolution centre.

    I shipped it by UPS and the problem is, after all this time the UPS tracking number no longer works, so I can't prove I sent or that it was delivered (although I know it was)

    I do have an e-mail from the buyer via Ebay message thanking me for the delivery, and still have a copy of the UPS address label for the shipping, but with tracking no longer available, I think I'm going to be down just under 1k, as a label on it's own is no proof I sent it. I've used UPS for years via collection and drop-off and have never been given anything on paper etc to say it was sent, so I struggling with this.

    Any advice?

    That's awful, I'd get onto paypal in the first instance and ask them why this has been allowed outside of their 180 day window. I know there are some exceptions but it is not unknown for paypal to make a serious error and forget their rules, especially when they are likely to lose out.

    Then try the route that RFW suggests.

    I would also be onto the buyer about this, point out that a fraudulent claim has been made and that you will obviously be reporting this to the Police and perhaps someone has accessed their accounts to make this fraudulent claim and you thought you should warn them before the police get involved. Point out that unfortunately as you have proof of delivery (cough) the claim will have to be made personally against them in the court, so they may want to check their accounts to see who has had access and is doing this. I actually had someone back down on me at this point before, I never accused them of anything and gave them the way out that they might also be the victim, and they came straight back with - don't go to the Police, I'll sort this out as I think I was hacked.

    If the bluff doesn't work then I would be sending a letter before action to the buyer and take this further.

    Good luck!
    I’m a Forum Ambassador and I support the Forum Team on the eBay, Auctions, Car Boot & Jumble Sales, Boost Your Income, Praise, Vents & Warnings, Overseas Holidays & Travel Planning , UK Holidays, Days Out & Entertainments boards. If you need any help on these boards, do let me know.. Please note that Ambassadors are not moderators. Any posts you spot in breach of the Forum Rules should be reported via the report button, or by emailing forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com.All views are my own and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.
  • RFW
    RFW Posts: 10,009
    Name Dropper First Post Combo Breaker First Anniversary
    Forumite
    soolin wrote: »
    That's awful, I'd get onto paypal in the first instance and ask them why this has been allowed outside of their 180 day window.
    Good advice. Make sure you call them and don't use messaging. On the phone they're pretty good, or at least can be. They seem to give some of the telephone operators some autonomy on what they can do, so, in theory, they could resolve it quickly.
    .
  • bxboards
    bxboards Posts: 1,711 Forumite
    Thanks to both of you.

    I understood the 180 day limit was for SNAD or INR, but this is a chargeback or reversal which I believe can be made at any time. As far as I know, if you tell a bank a payment is fraudulent, they have to return the money to the originating bank account without question, so Paypal are clawing it back from me.

    https://www.fca.org.uk/consumers/unauthorised-payments-account
  • soolin
    soolin Posts: 72,034
    Photogenic Name Dropper First Post First Anniversary
    Ambassador
    edited 12 May 2018 at 10:19AM
    bxboards wrote: »
    Thanks to both of you.

    I understood the 180 day limit was for SNAD or INR, but this is a chargeback or reversal which I believe can be made at any time. As far as I know, if you tell a bank a payment is fraudulent, they have to return the money to the originating bank account without question, so Paypal are clawing it back from me.

    https://www.fca.org.uk/consumers/unauthorised-payments-account

    I understood though that this still had to be within the 180 day window for paypal, otherwise paypal took the claim over. However, I find paypal one of the difficult sites to negotiate trying to find the actual policy, every time I hit on what I think is the right bit it reverts to paypal US.

    I get this far in ebay UK and then it just stops being helpful.

    https://www.paypal.com/gb/selfhelp/article/what-is-a-chargeback,-and-why-did-i-get-one-faq2036
    I’m a Forum Ambassador and I support the Forum Team on the eBay, Auctions, Car Boot & Jumble Sales, Boost Your Income, Praise, Vents & Warnings, Overseas Holidays & Travel Planning , UK Holidays, Days Out & Entertainments boards. If you need any help on these boards, do let me know.. Please note that Ambassadors are not moderators. Any posts you spot in breach of the Forum Rules should be reported via the report button, or by emailing forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com.All views are my own and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.
  • soolin
    soolin Posts: 72,034
    Photogenic Name Dropper First Post First Anniversary
    Ambassador
    Found something:

    https://www.paypal.com/uk/webapps/mpp/chargebacks

    The maximum time a buyer has to file a chargeback with their credit card company is typically 120 days after the expected delivery of the agreed goods or services. Certain exceptions may apply.

    Note the exceptions may apply which has no links and no further explanations!
    I’m a Forum Ambassador and I support the Forum Team on the eBay, Auctions, Car Boot & Jumble Sales, Boost Your Income, Praise, Vents & Warnings, Overseas Holidays & Travel Planning , UK Holidays, Days Out & Entertainments boards. If you need any help on these boards, do let me know.. Please note that Ambassadors are not moderators. Any posts you spot in breach of the Forum Rules should be reported via the report button, or by emailing forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com.All views are my own and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.
  • bxboards
    bxboards Posts: 1,711 Forumite
    soolin wrote: »
    Found something:

    https://www.paypal.com/uk/webapps/mpp/chargebacks

    The maximum time a buyer has to file a chargeback with their credit card company is typically 120 days after the expected delivery of the agreed goods or services. Certain exceptions may apply.

    Note the exceptions may apply which has no links and no further explanations!

    Paypal are requesting info from me - the e-mail tells me the money has already been returned to the buyer's bank and I've been debited the amount - if I want it back via seller protection I have to provide proof of postage - which I no longer have as the UPS tracking number which would have shown the 'proof of postage' part needed for Seller Protection doesn't work. The tracking now shows as invalid.

    The delivery address was to a shipping company, not a residential address, so I have no way to get a Letter Before Action to them either.
  • RFW
    RFW Posts: 10,009
    Name Dropper First Post Combo Breaker First Anniversary
    Forumite
    bxboards wrote: »
    Paypal are requesting info from me - the e-mail tells me the money has already been returned to the buyer's bank and I've been debited the amount - if I want it back via seller protection I have to provide proof of postage - which I no longer have as the UPS tracking number which would have shown the 'proof of postage' part needed for Seller Protection doesn't work. The tracking now shows as invalid.
    It may show to you as invalid but worth submitting it and pointing out the problem. I had a quick look (I use UPS a lot) and it seems they have archived shipment data that's accessible to account holders. So it should be somewhere that you can access.
    How did you buy the UPS service?

    If you have the date of delivery and/or despatch it will still be in their system in some form.
    .
  • bxboards
    bxboards Posts: 1,711 Forumite
    RFW wrote: »
    It may show to you as invalid but worth submitting it and pointing out the problem. I had a quick look (I use UPS a lot) and it seems they have archived shipment data that's accessible to account holders. So it should be somewhere that you can access.
    How did you buy the UPS service?

    If you have the date of delivery and/or despatch it will still be in their system in some form.

    I got the label via Shutl - I've contacted them (before I posted here) and they do not seem optimistic the tracking or proof of sending can be recovered after nearly a year.
  • ballisticbrian
    ballisticbrian Posts: 3,933
    First Anniversary Combo Breaker First Post
    Forumite
    I have never been in that exact situation, but I have found on phoning PayPal they have waived most of my sub £20 chargebacks for a certain type of fraud, or I've been able to upload a proof of posting scan.


    I wonder if a copy of your shutl invoice (email) would help? What I mean is, doesn't Shutl only charge you if the label is used. i.e. it must track into their system in order for the cost to appear on your invoice (just a guess)?
    Warning: any unnecessary disclaimers appearing under my posts do not bear any connection with reality, either intended, accidental or otherwise. Your statutory rights are not affected.
This discussion has been closed.
Meet your Ambassadors

Categories

  • All Categories
  • 342.5K Banking & Borrowing
  • 249.9K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
  • 449.4K Spending & Discounts
  • 234.6K Work, Benefits & Business
  • 607.1K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
  • 172.8K Life & Family
  • 247.4K Travel & Transport
  • 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
  • 15.8K Discuss & Feedback
  • 15.1K Coronavirus Support Boards