Smart Meters

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  • nxdmsandkaskdjaqd
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    I find it strange that it's not possible to monitor the battery level from the actual Smart Meter. Why would they design a product without this functionality.
  • System
    System Posts: 178,094 Community Admin
    Photogenic Name Dropper First Post
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    I find it strange that it's not possible to monitor the battery level from the actual Smart Meter. Why would they design a product without this functionality.

    There may be a degree of over reaction here. Looking at most suppliers’ websites there are statements such as this:

    Quote: The display on my smart gas meter is showing ‘Battery low’. What do I need to do?

    This means your battery is running low and will soon need to be replaced. You do not need to do anything as a message will be sent to us and an engineer will call to replace your battery within the near future.

    Depending on the location of your gas meter, the representative may need access to your property. If it is located in an outside meter box, which is freely accessible, the work can be carried out without the need for you to be present. Otherwise the work will need to be carried out at a time when access to your meter is possible. Unquote

    So we have three ways of monitoring battery life:

    1. Time since install which no doubt suppliers will have on their database, and they will plan to exchange batteries before LIFEX.

    2. Smart meter diagnostic reporting.

    3. Physical indication on the actual display.

    The battery failure rate is likely to be very small. If it wasn’t, then there would be public outrage not just the odd report in the Press of a battery failure. SMETS 1 meters will either be adopted by the DCC within the 10 year battery life or deemed orphaned assets and replaced with a SMETS2 meter. Worry not - me thinks.
  • House_Martin
    House_Martin Posts: 1,462 Forumite
    edited 10 December 2017 at 5:58PM
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    However, if you have changed supplier, the smart meter becomes dumb, therefore No ONE is monitoring the battery!
    Excellent point, and this will be extremely common .The meter will then just be like the millions of other dumb credit and prepayment meters in the UK which have batteries and this has been going on for well over 10 years .
    Even the older George Wilson prepay meters which are analogue meters from the 1990s have batteries which shuts the valve "off " or "on ". If it happens to fail with the valve open, then all is well and its the occupiers lucky day..no more top ups !
    Prepayment meters in general are a lousy idea and lead to huge losses in revenue.The UK alone seems to be a big fan of the "easy " way with debtors.Other countries simply cut them off completely if they will not pay.
    Much better to do what the rest of the world do and just have credit meters which need someone to come out physically to turn on the gas or electric and if you can t be trusted to pay for it and get into large debts than tough, no gas/leccy for you.
    This has been in operation for a long time without anyone dragging it up as some sort of danger to little old ladies without heating when the battery fails and shuts the gas off.
    As I say we have 3 lads alone in my section who will go out at short notice to replace the battery. It might drag on sometimes for a few days.My colleagues constantly complain about driving 20 miles for a battery exchange only to find there`s no one answering the door, even though they are clearly in.
  • Nick_C
    Nick_C Posts: 7,459 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Anniversary First Post Home Insurance Hacker!
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    However, if you have changed supplier, the smart meter becomes dumb, therefore No ONE is monitoring the battery!

    Well I've just signed up for a two year fixed tariff with Ovo. I would hope that in two years time, I will be able to move to BG or N Power as well as First Utility, Utilita, or E.On (who are already compatible) and retain smart meter functionality.

    But if the compatability issues have not been sorted out in two years and I want to move back to BG, then they can replace my Ovo smart meter with one of their own.
  • Michaelw
    Michaelw Posts: 296 Forumite
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    badmemory wrote: »
    So 3 hours on and no-one has an answer to this! It is not a minor issue in a mostly gas using house, nobody is prepared to state that when a battery fails you will still be able to heat & cook! No low battery warning! Not even a "you can replace the battery yourself" notification. How many reasons does a reasonable person need to not have a smart meter fitted?

    Some batteries just die so its possible the supplier will only know the same time as the householder or shortly before.

    Repeated firmware updates and heavy usage and extreme tempertures/climate all contribute to problems,however battery life in outdoor conditions is suspect around the two years mark as media reports have suggested in these types of battery powered gas meter.The supplier is likely to exchange the meter rather then the battery as this is stated as the meter is stated as having a having a ten year life.British Gas lease their meters for example.

    The standard E6 meter from the post below does have a battery also,however there is no prepayment facility valve and the meter continues to supply gas after battery failure.

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=2977934

    If you rely on gas for heating and cooking and the valve closes then yes you will not be able to heat/cook and an engineer will be required to attend.

    It is concerning as the possibility of meters installed around the same time could fail around the same period because of batteries as is the risk of failed firmware updates.Both have the potential to cause havoc.
  • System
    System Posts: 178,094 Community Admin
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    Have a look at the Table on page 8. The battery life might surprise you.

    http://www.tadiranbatteries.de/pdf/applications/battery-concepts-for-smart-utility-meters.pdf

    Smart devices are not constantly powered up. They send information in short bursts at set intervals. If the transmission is missed, the information is sent in the next burst. I have smart heating controls and standard alkaline batteries last 2 to 3 years in motorised electronic TRVs. Smart meters do not use standard alkaline batteries.
  • House_Martin
    House_Martin Posts: 1,462 Forumite
    edited 10 December 2017 at 10:27PM
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    Nick_C wrote: »
    Well I've just signed up for a two year fixed tariff with Ovo. I would hope that in two years time, I will be able to move to BG or N Power as well as First Utility, Utilita, or E.On (who are already compatible) and retain smart meter functionality.

    But if the compatability issues have not been sorted out in two years and I want to move back to BG, then they can replace my Ovo smart meter with one of their own.
    Ovo do state they will work smart with a few other suppliers but they say they may not be able to use Secure meters from customers who switch from other suppliers. Bit odd that !
    ..I will check with Utilita, First Utility and Eon to see if they say the same thing about moving to compatible meters with other suppliers. i ve changed my mind now, I think Ovo are lying ! None of the other suppliers will say anything about Secure meters working with other suppliers so I will take that as a negative
    Outside of a couple of white label suppliers ( sainsburys/Marks and spencers ) I ve not heard of this happening.
    Its odd that quite a few suppliers have the same smart meters (landis and Gyr ) and they are all dumb on switching .BG to Eon is a common switch and up to last year Eon were using Landis Gyrs too and all never worked smart.
    I think if they were compatible we would have had some people on here mentioning it. I can t recall anyone saying that though.
  • Zentex
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    Here is a Letter I wrote to Greg Clark minister for energy along with my local MP and Offgem - as you can see I was scandalised by the whole setting up and implementation of Smart Meters - I will post those replies I have received after this first post - You will notice I have yet to receive any reply from Greg Clark on this matter !

    Dear Greg, Steve & Offgem.

    I cannot believe that in 2017 the smart meter I recently had fitted about 6 months ago will now not be compatible when I switch supplier !! '???

    WHO in God's name allowed this to be rolled out throughout the industry without ANY joined up thinking???

    Surely as OFFgem is supervising all of the Energy Companies it should have been their organisation to insist that a working, value for money product which is compatible to ALL suppliers is introduced in the first place, am I right in thinking this??

    When I was told yesterday that my recently fitted smart meter is all but useless with my new supplier (and YES the consumers are rightly advised to swap energy suppliers frequently when any better deals come along) I started to look into the facts.

    The industry as a whole must have known all along that this is going to be a complete and utter waste of everybody's time and more importantly money until there is standardisation within the whole industry !

    What I would like to know is :

    A/. WHO decided it is acceptable to force utility providers to put in smart meters when it was known that none of the suppliers are working to a universal specification?

    B/. WHY role this out under a pressing timescale deadline when everybody in the industry knows that they will all have to ripped out and replaced with a universal unit in the near future when one is chosen by the industry?

    C/. WHO has decided that this utterly myopic strategy should be introduced knowing all along that the costs will be passed over via higher energy bills eventually to every consumer in the land probably for the next decade or more??

    From the internet I have discovered that an article was written in the Telegraph as far back as 2012 raised these exact same issues; so why has nothing been done to stop this fiasco before now ? and why 5 years later in 2017 was I still fitted with a smart meter which is NOT compatible to other suppliers?
    - this is utterley scandalous.! :

    the Telegraph artile reads:
    ''The scheme is due to cost energy companies a whopping £11.7billion, which they plan to pass on to consumers by hiking prices. Smart meters are expected to add £6 to the average annual bill by 2015.
    In a letter to suppliers, energy watchdog Ofgem said it was also concerned that suppliers may not be able to read meters installed by a rival company.
    This renders the new technology useless if customers want to switch deals – in effect, the smart meter would work like the old types of ‘dumb’ meters currently in homes

    A spokesman said: ‘The meters being installed at present are not built to a common technical specification. As such, when a customer changes supplier, the new supplier may not be able to utilise the advanced functionality.
    ‘Furthermore, if the meter is not a compliant smart meter then it will have to be replaced by the end of the rollout.’
    Consumer groups have also warned the green scheme is fast becoming a costly disaster.
    Zoe McLeod, of Consumer Focus, said: ‘We have repeatedly raised concerns about the cost and installation of smart meters. Customers – who will ultimately foot the bill – need to be confident that they will see tangible benefits.''

    In view of the above can this whole ridiculous farce be STOPPED immediately until such time as a universal working smart meter is chosen??

    WHY waste any more money on something which is ultimately USELESS and UNFIT FOR PURPOSE ??

    I simply CANNOT BELIEVE WHAT I HAVE JUST DISCOVERED a bunch of school kids would have come to the conclusion that this whole project is UTTERLY DISINGENUOUS AND SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN STARTED until it had been properly thought through.

    I FOR ONE DO NOT WANT TO SEE £11.7 BILLION POUNDS FLUSHED DOWN THE TOILET !

    I would like to see anybody and everybody who decided this strategy should be rolled out before it was properly thought through lose their jobs immediately, just think how many hospitals and schools could have been built , maintained or staffed with this incredible sum of money !

    Please can we a public enquirey set up to get to the bottom is this fiasco so NO MORE money is wasted until it is properly resolved and ready to be rolled out with universal meters?

    I hope Steve as my local MP that you will be able to follow this up with the Minister for Energy Mr Greg Clark for his immediate intervention to halt this scandalous waste within the whole Industry.

    Common Sense Solution :
    In order to have the least number of smart meters replaced Nationally and thus help to reduce costs to the consumers, surely the supplier who has fitted the most smart meters presently should have their product deemed to be the future industry standard and all other smart meters replaced with this new industry standard.

    I look forward to hearing from you all on this hugely important topic.

    Please ensure all utility suppliers fit NO MORE METERS until this sorry mess has been rationalised and universal systems accessible to all suppliers are in place.

    This kind of complete !!!!-up makes my blood boil and how can it still be unresolved at least 5 years after it was known to be a failed strategy? - HEADS SHOULD ROLE OVER THIS CATASTROPHIC WASTE OF PUBLIC MONEY.- £11.6 BILLION DOWN THE TOILET !!!!!!

    SCANDALOUS !!!
  • Zentex
    Zentex Posts: 9 Forumite
    First Anniversary First Post
    edited 15 March 2021 at 10:47AM
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    The Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (BEIS) is responsible for oversight of the rollout of smart metering. As part of its strategy the government has placed an obligation on licensed energy suppliers to take all reasonable steps to roll out smart meters to their domestic customers by the end of 2020.

    The rollout of smart meters can broadly be split into two stages. The first stage began in 2011 and is known as the foundation phase. During this stage a number of energy suppliers have been installing first generation smart meters supported by their own communications systems. Their customers are then able to realise, at an early stage, many of the benefits of smart metering. Consumers with these meters can switch supplier but, if the new supplier cannot operate a meter in smart mode, they will need to operate it as a traditional meter with meter readings taken manually. Energy suppliers must inform customers of this risk.

    The second stage of the rollout is known as the main installation stage. For this stage the government has appointed a company to establish a new national infrastructure that will enable communications between second generation smart meters and all energy suppliers. Second generation smart meters will therefore continue to work as a smart meter when a customer switches supplier. This stage is just getting started and most energy suppliers expect to start installing second generation meters during 2017.

    The government’s objective is that first generation smart meters should also continue to operate as smart meters upon switching. A project is underway looking at options for connecting first generation meters to the new national infrastructure, so that all suppliers can use them as smart meters. In the meantime, a number of industry parties are looking at interim options to allow more customers to be able to switch and keep their smart services.

    Ofgem has taken steps to protect consumers with early smart meters. If your meter was installed after 1 November 2012, your supplier has a responsibility to inform you that you may lose the advanced features of your meter if you switch supplier. Similarly, if a consumer is switching and has an early smart meter, they must be told by the new supplier of any meter functionality and associated services they may lose. In addition to this, larger installing suppliers, must offer services, such a remote meter reads, should other suppliers request them.
    {Text removed by Forum Team}
  • House_Martin
    House_Martin Posts: 1,462 Forumite
    edited 11 December 2017 at 10:52PM
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    I don`t know why you are so scandalised , most of the smart meters installed are working smart now and the early ones have been installed for over 10 years with British Gas.
    I saw my first smart meter , a Mk 1 Landis and Gyr over ten years ago . It is still in the same property doing its job perfectly well with the same supplier. Its doing sterling service and billing exactly correct with no problems with the gas and electric billing.
    No estimates, no nasty shocks, no screaming down the phone at call centre staff.No dramas. That is what we want, then forums like this would not need to exist at all because all would run smoothly and no one would be coming on here complaining about a £2000 catch up bill
    British Gas who jumped the gun on all the other suppliers, got in early because they had the sense to do that. These same smart meters have been working perfectly for many years for their loyal customers who never switch suppliers anyway.
    Simply being able to switch suppliers every 5 mins is also costing the industry millions in switching fees. every time someone switches the gaining supplier coughs up £60.
    I work for British Gas meter reading. That is nt done for free, our workforce has been cut right back saving the industry more millions. BG have installed around 2.5 million and the vast majority have nt switched supplier
    The majority of customers do not switch supplier..ever.. and stay religiously with the suppliers such as British Gas and Npower in my area in Yorkshire, Southern Energy in the South and Scottish Power in Scotland and Eon in the midlands.
    Most smart meters are being installed when the lifespan of the dumb meter has come to an end .The fitters had to exchange the meter anyway. The only extra cost is the price of the meters themselves which are a bit pricier.
    You are over reacting.I hope you get a reply from your letters but I doubt you will
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